Seeing a flop from the Button in a MTT.

I was in a MTT 15k tourney Sun.on FullFlush .I had been running bad all game but surviving.There was 215 players in the tournament.I made the cashout at finishing in 23rd.I looked at my stats late in that game.I had 0% of seeing the flop from the button.I thought that was horrible. I had seen more from mid position.I guess I got the percentage 0 because I had played short stacked the entire game with weak cards and taking jabs at the pot with a all in bluff post flop or when I picked up half decent playing cards like K/9,J/Q.What would be a normal percentage be to see a flop from the button on a MTT?

You shouldnt be playing poker to "take flops" except for very rarely with Suited Connectors or small-mid Pocket Pairs when the pot and implied odds are viable. Also when you arent sacrificing too much of your stack to retain Fold equity.

Button is a great spot to be stealing open for 2.25 etc especially when folded to you.

PLAYINBIG said:

.I looked at my stats late in that game.I had 0% of seeing the flop from the button.I thought that was horrible.

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That does look like a bad statistic but statistics always don't tell you the whole story. As you said you were short stacked the entire tournament. So when you are short stacked there is no point entering the pot from the button trying to outplay your opponent post flop as even if you bet post flop the opponent will call your bet or put you all in holding a marginal hand seeing that you have a short stack.

So in a tournament it is very important for one to play according to their stack size and since you did manage to finish in the money instead of being short stacked pretty much the whole game it means that you played the right way. So you don't need to bother with those stats in this case.

PLAYINBIG said:

I was in a MTT 15k tourney Sun.on FullFlush .I had been running bad all game but surviving.There was 215 players in the tournament.I made the cashout at finishing in 23rd.I looked at my stats late in that game.I had 0% of seeing the flop from the button.I thought that was horrible. I had seen more from mid position.I guess I got the percentage 0 because I had played short stacked the entire game with weak cards and taking jabs at the pot with a all in bluff post flop or when I picked up half decent playing cards like K/9,J/Q.What would be a normal percentage be to see a flop from the button on a MTT?

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It's really hard to determine if it's bad or not because there are a lot of factors to consider. Tournament structure being the main one. If for example the tournament is a slow paced tournaments where we start deep we should be seeing more flops in position early stages.

Given you saw more flops because you raised from early/middle position just probably means you was playing a very tag game which is good for early stages of the tournament. Seeing flops when short stacked even on button is going to be bad, but given you had 0% from the button probably means you're playing to tight. I think a better stat to see would be your steal percentage from there because if you're stealing at a decent rate and blinds are folding, this of course is good and better than seeing flops.


Post your steal stats but I get a feeling you're probably playing way to tight. Playing tight in tournaments is fine in general, but if effective stack sizes are getting smaller you should be putting on more pressure and opening wider etc in position.


With all that said, taking stats from one particular tournament isn't going to be all that meaningful. There are times where in tournaments you just can't get much going and end being forced to playing super tight because the spots aren't coming up, if this is the case in the odd tournament it's fine. If this is your overall stat though for all MTT's then yeah it's pretty damn terrible.

0% does seem a little odd.. but like Ramdeebam just said, it would be good to see your steals on the button etc. But, its unlikely that someone folded to your steals 100% of the time, so i think there should have been some flops seen from the button, or it indicates maybe playing a little too tight.

tARsh said:

You shouldnt be playing poker to "take flops" except for very rarely with Suited Connectors or small-mid Pocket Pairs when the pot and implied odds are viable. Also when you arent sacrificing too much of your stack to retain Fold Equity.

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I disagree with this, unless you are referring to his stack size, because that is correct that with his stack size he doesn't want to be "seeing flops". However in general playing pots in position is a great strategy; and so conventional wisdom suggests we should ALL be seeing flops on the button in a higher percentage compared to other positions. (except in the case of the OP, being shortstacked the whole tourney position doesn't help you out much at all if you are all in preflop...)

Button is a great spot to be stealing open for 2.25 etc especially when folded to you.

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This I agree with. especially if you are short it will look awfully strong. if you're extremely short (like 8-10bbs) it's a bad idea but if you have say 15-20bbs and it folds to your button you can raise 2.25bbs with garbage and easily fold to a reraise. If they flat you preflop and then check to you on the flop you can jam pretty close to 100% of the time and unless they were slowplaying 2 pair or better you should win a few medium pots that way, picking up about a 30% stack increase relatively risk free.

also, for myself I have increased my raising range from the CO and HJ a bit and eased up on my button raising range just a bit because I think button raises are just too obvious nowadays and even rookies know they are often bullshit raises. BUT, I have reversed that trend for calling a raise. I will call a raise a little wider on my button than I will from my CO for example, because I know I'll have the best position throughout the hand. It's much easier to play a pot without the betting lead when you have position.

So for example, I have increased my CO raising range to roughly 26% of hands, and I have decreased my button raising range to roughly 32% of hands. So, I am still raising more often in the button than in the CO, but that gap is closing. I used to raise the button about 35-40% of the time if it folded to me.

I don't know if all those stats helped you or not. just things to think about. I agree that 1 tournament in isolation doesn't tell you a lot, but it's great that you are thinking about these things. Have you worked out your own opening and jamming ranges from certain positions? It is a useful and eye opening exercise to see just how trashy of hand you can jam from the HJ for instance and still be a +EV move...

tARsh said:

You shouldnt be playing poker to "take flops" except for very rarely with Suited Connectors or small-mid Pocket Pairs when the pot and implied odds are viable. Also when you arent sacrificing too much of your stack to retain Fold Equity.

Button is a great spot to be stealing open for 2.25 etc especially when folded to you.

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You have to take flops

You are judging too small a sample to draw valid conclusions. What was your overall opening range? How often was it folded to you on the button? How often did you open range or push and get folded to? All that said it sure looks odd. Must have been a very loose game.

think it really depends on the game, the tourney equity, and the villians, but in unopened pots you should probably be opening lots of buttons

I believe that you will not always hit the flop so you have to adapt to every flop

Maybe its so happen you have bad cards whenever your the button or someone

always enters before you and you have marginal hand while on the button and

have to fold.

missjacki said:

I disagree with this, unless you are referring to his stack size, because that is correct that with his stack size he doesn't want to be "seeing flops". However in general playing pots in position is a great strategy; and so conventional wisdom suggests we should ALL be seeing flops on the button in a higher percentage compared to other positions. (except in the case of the OP, being shortstacked the whole tourney position doesn't help you out much at all if you are all in preflop...)

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yes

dannywho said:

You have to take flops

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It was a reference to perspective which is crucial to understanding and thus execution.
Should be looking at it from a perspective of circumstantial EV not oh this hand could hit or I should take a flop.
I feel the distinction is worth making, building blocks of everything must be stably seeded.

On the one hand it is necessary to wait for the opportunity to see the flop on the button and on the other game does not always allow you to limp handing you a terrible card that rivals even without the game would be played.

For me (low stakes only):
- I dont like bluffing from button, because noone believes me (it seems much easier to steal from CO)
- it doesnt make sense to do small raises from flop with short stack

So with short stack, even if you are not in push-fold range yet, your flop % is purely determined by cards. I would not be afraid about that number from one tournament.

getting to the cash is the 1st objective, stealing a few blinds on the way but only with cards that can stack up to the big blind. once the cash as bean reached and u got short stack its the case of any to live cards to steal blins or to get them in

joker131 said:

getting to the cash is the 1st objective, stealing a few blinds on the way but only with cards that can stack up to the big blind. once the cash as bean reached and u got short stack its the case of any to live cards to steal blins or to get them in

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This doesnt exactly sound like playing to win... which is what you must do in most MTTs