second nuts, early - value raise?

T

The_Pup

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Here's a type of situation that I would welcome views on. It is about getting value from a made non-nut flush/straight etc.

Early in a tourney with a healthy stack we hold Kcx and have seen a cheap flop and turn with one other player when a fourth club hits the river. The villain opens with a pot sized bet and we are fairly sure they have a flush too. I tend to just call these rather than raise them but I am worried that I am not getting full value from my hand for fear of suddenly finding myself shortstacked or out on a hand I didn't have to get overinvolved with early on.

My thinking is that if they are bluffing (ie no flush) they aren't going to call my raise, if they have the Ac they are reraising me, if they have a club they are only going to call a small raise anyway but I give them an oportunity to shove and suddenly I am facing a life or death decision.

Am I missing out on value here or playing smart by not getting into trouble?
 
LennyPigeon

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If raising here is a play that puts your tournament at risk, I say you are doing the right thing by just calling. The bet the villain has made could easily be a bluff, which by calling you can reveal. It could, however, just as easily mean he has the ace.

If a raise/reraise/fold situation does not mean the end of your tournament, then sure a raise might get you those extra chips and is probably not a bad move. In a 'life or death' situation you describe, i'd keep doing what you're doing. ;)
 
absoluthamm

absoluthamm

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You're in what is called a WA/WB(Way ahead/Way behind) calling here is the right thing to do because if you stick in the raise, you're probably going to be called with the hand that beats yours.
 
wislim

wislim

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Early on in tournaments it's correct to just call and keep the pot small with a non nut hand. If we raise and then get reraised it puts us in a shitty spot. We may still have the best hand but w/o reads early on why get into these situations.
 
dwolfg

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Absolutely agree, calling is best option here.
 
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Marginal

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You're in what is called a WA/WB(Way ahead/Way behind) calling here is the right thing to do because if you stick in the raise, you're probably going to be called with the hand that beats yours.

Lol, you do realise this is the river and that we either win or lose?

Depends on the size of the bet to stack and the perception of villain. Its very easy to raise here if villain is going to call with a Q or J or even T and trust me, some villains will. If the pot is 600 chips and he bets 30 into you, you will lose value by not raising.
 
absoluthamm

absoluthamm

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Lol, you do realise this is the river and that we either win or lose?

Whoops, good job catchin that one Jeremy. For some reason I was thinking it was the turn until I re-read it. Seems to me like it's the turn hitting the 4 to flush that I always see people donking off their chips.
 
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starky2009

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If you want my advice i would need to know the level of play here.

If this is a 1 dollar mtt i'd happily go broke here by raising all in (against an unknown), i do feel we'll get called by many worse flushes by many worse opponents to make it worth it.

If its a reg, or you know the player to be tight from previous history; or if you've seen enough hands to indicate so, such as a vpip of 6 over 20 hands i would agree with the crowd and say just call.

Is anyone ever folding here? Maybe against the worlds biggest nit, where you've seen him pot bet the nuts before??
 
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The_Pup

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Thanks for the thoughts all - it seems we all agree that I shouldn't change my current strategy.
 
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