SB/BB blind stealing in the mid stages of a STT 9-man turbo SnG

J

jaded848

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Total posts
325
Chips
0
I've been having trouble with this aspect of the game. Let's say I have 1300 chips and blinds are 50/100. I'm in SB and action folds to me, and I have a hand like A5s, J9s, KTo, or 87s. Let's say BB is a tight player and has 1100 chips. If I want to make a steal here, do I shove or raise? The problem is, I always try a raise to say 250 or 300 and then they shove over the top of me. It's uncanny how often it happens, especially considering the players have been playing tight- I can only take it to mean that my move looks like such a blatant steal that their range is widened. Should I just shove when i steal in these cases or wait for better hands to steal with?

Another problem happens if they just flat it. Then if the flop misses me, I'm OOP and open to be outplayed. Any advice for these situations?
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
You can try limping the SB, It's a really good alternative to raising, especially at low limits. for example

blinds 50/100, with 1300 chips, you can make your standard raise to 250, no problems there.

Or, you can limp (50) and then bet any flop that comes (100). Costing you a total of 150 chips if it happens to go wrong.

It works really well at low to mid stakes, as, generally the players are loose/passive, So let them see a flop, then bet any flop, if they miss, they will probably give up. The pot is usually so small at this stage that even if people know what your doing, they probably wont think it's worth fighting over. Sure, sometimes this wont work, like you limp, and the BB decides to raise.. Oh well, it only cost your 50 chips, just dump your hand. Other times they may call or raise the flop.. Oh well, it only cost you 150 instead of 250 + Cbet.

In this situation though, remember when the guy has 1100 chips, you would effectively be only shoving 11bb's not 13bb's. Important thing to remember.
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
If bb is tight player, being the aggressive player I try to be, I shove. The A5 and K10 hands would be shoves for value as they are likely to be the best hand.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
If the guy is a tight player, then were not shoving A5 for value...what do we expect to be ahead of when the 'tight' player calls us? nothing? yep thats about right.

were shoving cos we have ridiculous amounts of fold equity, but instead of shoving, against most players, we can get away with just raising his blinds.
 
J

jaded848

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Total posts
325
Chips
0
Here's another issue I run into: Making the correct read on if a player will fold in the BB if I shove. There have been multiple times where a player who is 14/6 and has been playing tight calls my shove with a hand like A3o when I have something like J8o, and I'm just bewildered because apparently my read was way off (or maybe it just looks so obvious it's a steal?). It's just so hard to get a read from so few hands, and I think these plays are where I am losing most of my equity- I feel like I'm just "guessing."


Also WiZZiM- how does the 13 BB vs 11 BB factor into my decision? I'm a little confused there.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
were shoving cos we have ridiculous amounts of fold equity, but instead of shoving, against most players, we can get away with just raising his blinds.

Above you suggested limping, which made a lot of sense - w 11bb's effective (1300 vs. 1100 in bb), can we afford to raise without shoving? Honest question on my part.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
Above you suggested limping, which made a lot of sense - w 11bb's effective (1300 vs. 1100 in bb), can we afford to raise without shoving? Honest question on my part.

Oops, didn't word that very well huh?
Against the right opponant we definately can. If your up against a tight player, The only time they will call you or raise, is if they have a hand, so we can get away with risking less by making a raise. It isnt something id do lots of vs a looser player, id most likely decide to either shove, or try the limp n bet play mentioned above.

Sure it isn't ideal to raise to 250 and get shoved on. but its better than shoving and getting snapped by a range that crushes our shoving range. And we still take the pot down the same %. Like if we shove here, were getting called by lets say10%, if we raise, we might be getting shoved on/called a little looser, like 12-13%. But since were risking less chips, it makes up for that. (hypothetical spot, before anyone jumps down my throat about improper math, it's just guesstimates.)

In a MTT or a MTsng, this play becomes less effective, as you say, we can't afford to dick around.. but here, we can fold if were shoved on leaving ourselves with 11bb's which is in fine shape for a 9 man sng.
 
Last edited:
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
Here's another issue I run into: Making the correct read on if a player will fold in the BB if I shove. There have been multiple times where a player who is 14/6 and has been playing tight calls my shove with a hand like A3o when I have something like J8o, and I'm just bewildered because apparently my read was way off (or maybe it just looks so obvious it's a steal?). It's just so hard to get a read from so few hands, and I think these plays are where I am losing most of my equity- I feel like I'm just "guessing."


Also WiZZiM- how does the 13 BB vs 11 BB factor into my decision? I'm a little confused there.
Well you may have 13bb's but your oppoant, and the only guy left in the hand has 11bb's so, effectively your only shoving 11bb's. Just something to note in future hands, not as important in this situation as were about even stacked.

If i only have a few hands on a guy, ill treat them like a random.. What do random $2 players think its cool to call with? Ax? yep, KQ, yep. Ill treat them as randoms until they show me a reason not too. Try to put yourself in their shoes, your shoving from the SB, what would you expect a novice $2 player to call with? What would you expect a seemingly solid regular to call with? what would you expect a guy whos shown to throw his chips around call with?
Also, make a note system for yourself, like if you didn't expect the guy to call with A3, note that down, it's invaluable taking notes in SNG's.

Another thing to note is if they guy is 14/7(or whatever) over 30 hands, you shouldnt let that weigh too much into your decision making.

Lastly, if your shoving blind vs blind, lets say with 9bb's each. If he's calling with any ace, some broadway, any pair,(a reasonable range you can expect from a $2 player), then he is calling with around 20-25% of hands. That still isn't wide enough to make shoving any two unprofitable in the long run. Hed have to be calling with stuff like K5s,(35%) to make shoving any two unprofitable. Generally speaking though, in this situation, ill just fold out the bottom of my range to them, ill shove 90% instead of 100%, thus, making their 20% call even worse for them.
 
J

jaded848

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Total posts
325
Chips
0
Great response! I think a few bad experiences has caused me to really lock down on my shoving vs the BB, even if they are shoving that 25-30% range. I'll open my shoving range from now on in those situations.
 
J

jaded848

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Total posts
325
Chips
0
After plugging some stats into SnG Power Tools, I was surprised to find the shoving range to be only about 25% here. Why isn't it wider?
 

Attachments

  • SBshove.GIF
    SBshove.GIF
    35.2 KB · Views: 43
J

jaded848

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Total posts
325
Chips
0
Here's the same scenario with about 9 BB along with a common situation where the blinds have increased and we are left with about 7 BBs. Is it safe to say that you generally use the ATC shove move when you are @ about 7 BBs? Something that is also interesting to note is that suited cards are where it's at- at 9 BBs, the range for non-suited cards ends at T9o but for suited it continues to 65s.
 

Attachments

  • SBshove3.GIF
    SBshove3.GIF
    36.3 KB · Views: 41
  • SBshove2.GIF
    SBshove2.GIF
    34.9 KB · Views: 41
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
Wizzim, don't mean to derail here, but I don't think it's too far from OP's questions :). Your response to me made perfect sense, thanks, but I wanted to pursue the limp concept a bit. It's been a VERY long time since I played SnG's, so pls bear w me as I try (fruitlessly most likely) to make sense. :)

I'd been thinking that preserving chips in the early levels in order to play push/fold in the middle levels was critical, so unless there's a real reason to do so, the sb ought not be completed in early levels. A bad or tight bb player might be such a reason, but early on the chips aren't worth it in light of the positional disadvantage.

By extention, though, I'd also assumed that once we got to around 10 bb's (actual, not effective) that we're already in push/fold mode, so we ought to either be stealing by shoving or folding and look for a better spot. With the hands mentioned above, 13-15 bb's just seems awkward to risk even the sb completion - we have too many bb's to shove as a steal, we're not deep enough to overcome the positional disadvantage, and I still want to preserve chips for push/fold.

Is this improper thinking (probably is weak/tight)?
 
J

jaded848

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Total posts
325
Chips
0
Wizzim, don't mean to derail here, but I don't think it's too far from OP's questions :). Your response to me made perfect sense, thanks, but I wanted to pursue the limp concept a bit. It's been a VERY long time since I played SnG's, so pls bear w me as I try (fruitlessly most likely) to make sense. :)

I'd been thinking that preserving chips in the early levels in order to play push/fold in the middle levels was critical, so unless there's a real reason to do so, the sb ought not be completed in early levels. A bad or tight bb player might be such a reason, but early on the chips aren't worth it in light of the positional disadvantage.

By extention, though, I'd also assumed that once we got to around 10 bb's (actual, not effective) that we're already in push/fold mode, so we ought to either be stealing by shoving or folding and look for a better spot. With the hands mentioned above, 13-15 bb's just seems awkward to risk even the sb completion - we have too many bb's to shove as a steal, we're not deep enough to overcome the positional disadvantage, and I still want to preserve chips for push/fold.

Is this improper thinking (probably is weak/tight)?

Might as well throw my .02 in here. When I'm at 13-15 BBs, I don't steal unless 1) the BB is tight and 2) I have a decent hand. My steals however have not involved completions- they have been PF raises, which is one reason why I think I've been getting re-stealed on so much in these situations (it looks too obvious). I'm eager to try this completion strategy/bet any flop and see how it goes.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
Wizzim, don't mean to derail here, but I don't think it's too far from OP's questions :). Your response to me made perfect sense, thanks, but I wanted to pursue the limp concept a bit. It's been a VERY long time since I played SnG's, so pls bear w me as I try (fruitlessly most likely) to make sense. :)

I'd been thinking that preserving chips in the early levels in order to play push/fold in the middle levels was critical, so unless there's a real reason to do so, the sb ought not be completed in early levels. A bad or tight bb player might be such a reason, but early on the chips aren't worth it in light of the positional disadvantage.

By extention, though, I'd also assumed that once we got to around 10 bb's (actual, not effective) that we're already in push/fold mode, so we ought to either be stealing by shoving or folding and look for a better spot. With the hands mentioned above, 13-15 bb's just seems awkward to risk even the sb completion - we have too many bb's to shove as a steal, we're not deep enough to overcome the positional disadvantage, and I still want to preserve chips for push/fold.

Is this improper thinking (probably is weak/tight)?

It's a little on the weak side, yeah, i mean, the middle stages are a great time to start stealing blinds. preserving stack is good thought process for early blind levels. but once the blinds hit say 50/100, we definately want to be really aggressive in blind vs blind situations. yes it is an akward stack size, and in say a non turbo, i may advise not completing as often and folding more, but in a turbo, you need to stay aggressive. If your not, it's pretty much throwing away +EV situations. Sure it wont work all the time, but most of the time, we take the pot down and accumulate chips, setting ourselves up better in future situations.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
Might as well throw my .02 in here. When I'm at 13-15 BBs, I don't steal unless 1) the BB is tight and 2) I have a decent hand. My steals however have not involved completions- they have been PF raises, which is one reason why I think I've been getting re-stealed on so much in these situations (it looks too obvious). I'm eager to try this completion strategy/bet any flop and see how it goes.

you will be surprised how many pots these guys will give you. My general strat is, raise the really tight guys, raise the good players, with the loose players i tend to do the limp/bet thing.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
After plugging some stats into SnG Power Tools, I was surprised to find the shoving range to be only about 25% here. Why isn't it wider?

He seems to be calling pretty wide here, even stacks, though that shoving range isnt really great, id expect it to be ~50-60%

Check the 'edge' you have here, it may be really high, lower it to around .05
 
drgilbert4

drgilbert4

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Total posts
136
Awards
1
Chips
3
Most of the advice above is pretty solid, but I like to play these a little tighter in the early and early/middle stages. If you make a move here and get unlucky, you are likely to be all but gone... you are guaranteed 0% of the prize pool. However, if you can survive until bubble time and catch a few cards... which will happen in most games, then you can make a run for the win. This early in a 9 man STT, you should be trying to keep your chips and acquire chips from others when possible. The only way I'm making a move is if I have a solid read based on a real history with a player or if I have a premium hand. If I have only seen him in the current game, then I can't really make preflop moves against him with marginal holdings. At this point in the STT, I am trying to get to 2,000 or more in chips by the time we reach the bubble. I'm shoving when I get low enough on chips that I'm in danger of blinding out... around 10bb or slightly more based on cards/reads, etc... Otherwise, I know will get knocked out of some easy wins by simply being unlucky at the wrong time. You want to gamble after you make the money in these rather than before. Unlike MTT's, you only have to beat 6 people to make 20% of the prize pool. You get nothing for getting it in with Ax and being called by J8 only to find a Jack or an 8 on the flop, turn or river, or he makes a flush, straight, etc. There are a lot of bad players who will call you with about any two cards because, "the buyin was only $x.xx... I can't be too big of a dog to AK or AQ or a random hand... what the hell.. I call!" Maybe they are thinking that they are so bad that if they can only get lucky this one time, then they can double up and have a chance at cashing. It really doesn't matter their reason. If they call you with 72o and flop a 2, you are already way behind. They will get lucky enough of the time that you don't want to be in that situation before the money if it can be avoided. If you shove here and you lose to a bad player, then it is your fault. What made you think he would be good enough to fold? Don't assume everyone is going to fold when they should. If they were good enough to lay down hands to better hands, then they would be playing much higher stakes.. right? Good luck to you!
 
J

jaded848

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Total posts
325
Chips
0
While we are on the subject, let's discuss resteals. Should these be treated the same way as calling a shove from the BB? I can't tell if this is a leak in my game, but there have been multiple times where action folds around in the mid stages to the SB, who raises me in the BB. It looks like such an obvious steal attempt, and say I have a hand like AJo or even ATo, it's like "what are the odds his hand can actually beat that?" Then villain flips AKo and i'm done! In these situations, is it best to just look at their steal percentage and go from there (unless of course we hold premium)? What about if we have a mid PP like 44-99?

Also, you were right WiZ, the edge I had set was 0.5, when I changed it to 0.05 the range increased to 80%. You'll have to explain what the edge means to me someday haha
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
While we are on the subject, let's discuss resteals. Should these be treated the same way as calling a shove from the BB? I can't tell if this is a leak in my game, but there have been multiple times where action folds around in the mid stages to the SB, who raises me in the BB. It looks like such an obvious steal attempt, and say I have a hand like AJo or even ATo, it's like "what are the odds his hand can actually beat that?" Then villain flips AKo and i'm done! In these situations, is it best to just look at their steal percentage and go from there (unless of course we hold premium)? What about if we have a mid PP like 44-99?Pretty dependant on stack sizes etc, sometimes it's correct to fold a hand which is obviously ahead of your opponants range.

Also, you were right WiZ, the edge I had set was 0.5, when I changed it to 0.05 the range increased to 80%. You'll have to explain what the edge means to me someday hahaIt's an advanced ICM concept, i may write a post about it one day, Just keep checking that edge, i cant think of a situation where we can give ourselves a .50 edge. It just basically helps account for future blind situations as we know the calculator can only judge this one push/fold decision. It's pretty hard to explain, i may not be the best person in the world to explain it, but i can try, just let me know.

..
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
If the guy is a tight player, then were not shoving A5 for value...what do we expect to be ahead of when the 'tight' player calls us? nothing? yep thats about right.

were shoving cos we have ridiculous amounts of fold equity, but instead of shoving, against most players, we can get away with just raising his blinds.

An ace in the sb against only the bb is the mathematical favorite.
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
Not to mention only raising a quarter of your own stack, and a third of the bb's stack,without shoving, screams steal and even a tight player can change gears and make a play back at you.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,600
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
I've been having trouble with this aspect of the game. Let's say I have 1300 chips and blinds are 50/100. I'm in SB and action folds to me, and I have a hand like A5s, J9s, KTo, or 87s. Let's say BB is a tight player and has 1100 chips. If I want to make a steal here, do I shove or raise? The problem is, I always try a raise to say 250 or 300 and then they shove over the top of me. It's uncanny how often it happens, especially considering the players have been playing tight- I can only take it to mean that my move looks like such a blatant steal that their range is widened. Should I just shove when i steal in these cases or wait for better hands to steal with?

Another problem happens if they just flat it. Then if the flop misses me, I'm OOP and open to be outplayed. Any advice for these situations?

As mentioned (depending upon villain in BB) you can occassionally try limp/stab steal... OR just ship the pile in. Raise/folding on a stack of this size is a HUGE LEAK. If villain is ICM dumb, I'm more apt to limp/stab steal instead of shove. If they're ICM familiar I'm more likely shoving. If they're a reg. & believe I'm reg., I'm rarely limp/stab stealing (unless I'm limping big prs. in my range too) and am also tightening up marginally on my shoves (a good reg. will tend to call down another good reg. in BvB confrontations, knowing you should be shoving wide here...... BUT... if they're a good reg. & believe you're a good reg.(and know that you know that they're a good reg.), they know you should be tightening up your shoving range a bit here.. because they know that you know that they know you should 'typically' be shoving wider... therefore you could still be shipping wider, hee hee hee.. sounds crazy but is true... probably not something to be concerned with in micros)

Wizzim's gonna like this response ^... hee hee hee... looking forward to hearing their's.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
As mentioned (depending upon villain in BB) you can occassionally try limp/stab steal... OR just ship the pile in. Raise/folding on a stack of this size is a HUGE LEAK. If villain is ICM dumb, I'm more apt to limp/stab steal instead of shove. If they're ICM familiar I'm more likely shoving. If they're a reg. & believe I'm reg., I'm rarely limp/stab stealing (unless I'm limping big prs. in my range too) and am also tightening up marginally on my shoves (a good reg. will tend to call down another good reg. in BvB confrontations, knowing you should be shoving wide here...... BUT... if they're a good reg. & believe you're a good reg.(and know that you know that they're a good reg.), they know you should be tightening up your shoving range a bit here.. because they know that you know that they know you should 'typically' be shoving wider... therefore you could still be shipping wider, hee hee hee.. sounds crazy but is true... probably not something to be concerned with in micros)

Wizzim's gonna like this response ^... hee hee hee... looking forward to hearing their's.

If the villain is tight, then it's really not a huge leak to be raise/folding, as we get away with it enough times for it to be profitable. and we save money the times when we fold most likely as he will only be shipping the top of his range.

Against regs you've played with for a while, it can sometimes become a game of cat and mouse, i might shove with 100% early on, realise he is calling wider and tighten my range. In the micros ive never had to bother with this, they will never adjust or if they do, they wont adjust properly or in time. The big one you need to watch out for is 'spite calls' say your on the bubble and you decide to fold to the SB to keep him alive, a reg gets knocked out as a consequence. next time you play him, he may calling very wide, making it a -ev situation for you, and him. known as 'spite calling' it will happen from time to time with micro regs, as they may tilt and just snap call, getting sick of you shoving on them on multiple tables.
 
Top