Rule Question?

I just have a quick question regarding the muck pile in a live poker game.

Yesterday I had a hand were I had AA from the SB and 4 bet all-in, into two very strong opponents from early and middle position. The BB unexpectedly calls the all-in and the other two players fold.

Now, the BB shows 66 but as he turns them over he throws them (probably in disgust) and one of the sixes slides complete under the much pile; albeit it was face up. The floor was called and ruled that because it was “tabled” before it hit the muck pile the hand was still live. I was going to be pissed if he won but he didn’t, so it didn’t matter anyway – still is that right? It doesn’t sound right to me!

In most card rooms, when one or more of your cards hit the muck pile, even after being tabled, it's considered a dead hand. But because circumstances vary (ie; sloppy dealer not keeping a tidy muck) sometimes it will come down to a floor decision. If the intent was not to muck and a card just slid a little far across the table then it could be ruled a still live hand.

In this situation, did the player with 66 seem like he wanted to or say that he intended to muck? or was it just an aggravated turn over because he seen your AA and knew he made a mistake with the call? I'm guessing it was the latter, in which case the floor, imo, ruled correctly.

Btw, whether he won or not due to the floor's decision to keep the hand live is irrelevant.

If the card is easily identifiable, it may be retrieved from the muck.

Since it was the only face up card in the muck, it was easily identifiable. The dealer could have retrieved it without a floor ruling.

To press for the muck is a side shot. Cheesy. Especially when it's obvious what the players intentions were.

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Yeah I don’t have a problem with it really, but on the flip side I have always thought of the muck pile as the forbidden zone. I’ve seen players verbally fold but want to keep their cards, usually to show everyone what they folded and how good they are, and the dealer will make them touch the muck pile with those cards before allowing play to continue thereby making their hand dead.

But in this case it was obvious what the intent of the BB was and it was not to muck, so I don’t have a problem with it, I was just wondering from a rule standpoint how this could go.

TheKAAHK said:

Btw, whether he won or not due to the floor's decision to keep the hand live is irrelevant.

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I realize that it is irrelevant, but losing to a judgment call is always tough to take, just ask MLB’s Atlanta Braves.

Seems like one of those letter of the law vs justice kind of situations. Given that the player's intention was clear and his cards were always in sight, it's a no-brainer to go with justice here.

once mucked always mucked but im sure the card room had the floor come over and their was a bunch of this and that and people saying this and that and WELL If its retrivable then its playable if everyone saw it, BUT DAMNIT in the muck its mucked. Just like the people who want to snap call and already pushing chips on yourleft before they realize their was a raise (OH i thought it was a call) Once the chips pass the line you have the option to now call raise but youve lost the chips you pushed in such a haste

Arjonius said:

Seems like one of those letter of the law vs justice kind of situations. Given that the player's intention was clear and his cards were always in sight, it's a no-brainer to go with justice here.

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yup don't be a zero and be that hero and see the right thing here......JUSTICE league unite! glad your aces held man.

dan abnormal said:

once mucked always mucked but im sure the card room had the floor come over and their was a bunch of this and that and people saying this and that and WELL If its retrivable then its playable if everyone saw it, BUT DAMNIT in the muck its mucked. Just like the people who want to snap call and already pushing chips on yourleft before they realize their was a raise (OH i thought it was a call) Once the chips pass the line you have the option to now call raise but youve lost the chips you pushed in such a haste

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The purpose of the rules is to make the game as fair as possible, not to give people chances to angle-shoot. Moving chips across the line is an intentional act. Tossing your cards a bit too hard so they hit the muck is accidental, and since they were clearly visible at all times, calling for them to be ruled dead is angle-shooting.

It's also not universal that cards hitting the muck are dead; e.g. Robert's Rules of Poker includes this:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

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