Rule Question?

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ssbn743

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Consider two players at showdown in tournament poker. One player mucks his hand face down; does the only remaining player have to show his hand if requested by another player at the table?

This issue came up for me today. I refused to show – since in my opinion it doesn’t matter what my cards are as I am now the only player with cards – I win,plain and simple. However, one of the other players called the floor, who subsequently ruled in my favor and I did not show. But the player bitched and bitched for the better part of an hour about how I have to show – I’m just wondering,my belief is that NO, I don’t have to show!
 
WVHillbilly

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Generally yes, you have to show but lots of casinos adopt house rules that say you don't and that's a good thing imo.
 
Mortis

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I would think that you wouldn't have to show if everyone else has folded. As you said, you're the last one with cards and everyone else mucked, therefore, you shouldn't have to show.
 
WVHillbilly

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I would think that you wouldn't have to show if everyone else has folded. As you said, you're the last one with cards and everyone else mucked, therefore, you shouldn't have to show.
The rule is there to prevent collusion but it's generally only called for because of player curiosity. Basically asking to see someones hand in this situation is akin to accusing them of cheating which is why a lot of places have house rules counter to it.
 
JusSumguy

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Only at a showdown.

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ssbn743

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The rule is there to prevent collusion but it's generally only called for because of player curiosity. Basically asking to see someones hand in this situation is akin to accusing them of cheating which is why a lot of places have house rules counter to it.

OK, I'll buy that - that makes sense.

You know the floor really didn't know how to rule on this one and I have never seen anything like this happen in a tournament; though it happens frequently in cash games, cash rules are different and no one has ever made a big deal about this kind of stuff. I used my regular player status to persuade the floor into letting me muck face down. I don't really care - by that point I would have thrown them in the muck face down even if told to flip them over, just to tilt this other player - but I didn't know if there was a rule or not. But in the end, he tilted himself over this ruling and was gone in less than ½ hour.
 
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Wow shocked the rule is to show if asked, I would of assumed it was players choice...good interesting thread thanks for it.
 
talking2rocks911

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I really like this thread also... I never really thought about this but it is really good to know
 
WVHillbilly

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Well it seems I have a bit more to add.

This is the rule from Robert's Rules of Poker that I was basing my above posts on:
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
But it seems the TDA (Poker Tournament Directors Association) Rules are pretty different and favor the player not having to show his hand unless the TD says so:
14. Asking to See a Hand
Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask to see any hand.
So in this case, it's basically whatever the TD says goes. Sorry if my earlier posts misled anyone. I just didn't know of the difference in the rule books.
 
TEG2300

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That makes sense to me. It's a bit outlandish in my opinion to refuse to show your hand, which is what you are doing when you muck face down, then expect to be able to see the other players. imo once you have mucked your cards you are no longer in the hand and only players in the hand should be concerned with other player's holdings.
 
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I guess the answer then is that it is down to house rules.

But I've seen it where the dealer insists the cards are shown for the player to be able to take the pot, otherwise it is considered that they both mucked.

Of course this is only relevant at showdown, if there is no bet.
Normally a bet and a muck can't be challenged.

The other situation is when someone has been 'called' and mucks (probably because their bluff has been caught out), any player can ask to see the mucked cards (to stop collusion and chip dumping, but it is poor etiquette to ask just for information or too cause embarasment so limits can be put upon it).
 
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Yeah, in this case I was in seat 8, my opponent at showdown was seat 9. I called his bluff (though I nearly folded, so it was a valiant effort on his part), he mucked facedown. It was then that seat 5 or 6 (can’t remember exactly) insisted on seeing my hand – he had folded pre-flop.

I really don’t know and neither did the floor. Now I have never seen a rule book at my local card room and the start of every tournament is greeted with an announcement that TDA rules are in effect except when they conflict with house policy. I wonder, is this just such a situation, or is there a clear cut rule? Based on TDA rules and the fine line between collusion and honest play; I would think it would generally not be allowed to ask a player to show in this situation – unless you suspect collusion, and in which case, you had better be right!
 
sam1chips

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Pretty funny video that relates to this thread, poker etiquette...

 
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I think it would be simpler to make a rule
'all hands checked/called at showdown should be shown'.
If a player bluffs the river, and is called, he should not be allowed to muck his hand 'unseen'
as the other player has 'paid' to see his cards.
 
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ssbn743

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Wow, yep that’s almost exactly how it went down for me as well.

I think it would be simpler to make a rule
'all hands checked/called at showdown should be shown'.
If a player bluffs the river, and is called,he should not be allowed to muck his hand 'unseen'
as the other player has 'paid' to see his cards.

You’re right, but especially in a heads up situation were the dealer may not be prepared for this move, a player can often sneak his hand in the muck face down and then what? I’ve seen good quality dealers place a hand over the muck pile to prevent this exact move – then when the floor rules that cards must be shown he can still flip the hand over.

But this is interesting, good to know that Phil even agrees it’s not in the rules, just etiquette – which leads me to wonder; is there an etiquette book? Obviously, no, so again Phil looks like a jackass. “But, but, it’s against popular opinion”.
 
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