Rebuy vs Freezout

PokerDoctor · Aug 15, 2012

Been playing lot of rebuys lately and have a couple of question?
Realize some of these may hinge on how skilled you feel vs field.
Many of the rebuy tournaments offer double chips for double buyin
at the beginning and even rebuys with addons quite far in.
Do you always addon at the begining? The rational for or against?
Do you always rebuy and/or addon if knocked out? How far down?
Do you feel any of these choices have more +EV vs simple initial
buyin and letting the chips fall where the will, so to speak.
Lastly any general strategy tips vs freezout?

duggs · Aug 15, 2012

rebuy as often and as quickly as possible. if you can rebuy double stack, do it. if you can use 5 rebuys at once, do it. if you can addon, do it

DanziM · Aug 15, 2012

You should always be starting with the maximum available stack to maximise your winnings. This is the same concesus with cash games.....would you ever buyin for less than the max...no.

Rebuy to the max at the start and addon, use this bigger stack to your advantage.

Debi · Aug 15, 2012

I don't have a lot of time right now - but in a nutshell I always do the initial re-buy and the add-on when it comes around. I would not play a re-buy unless I was prepared to do that - you can not let others start with bigger stacks than you have. And the add-on is a no brainer - increasing your chip stack without winning a pot is a bonus you shouldn't pass on.

Henreiman · Aug 15, 2012

The rule of thumb about a rebuy is be prepared to commit at least 5-6x the starting buy-in. Don't be tempted because the prize pool looks so juicy - just think about how many times you're going to have to win flips, 60-40s, 70-30s, etc. In the end, it is incredibly likely you're going to have to rebuy. As such, you need to have maximum available chips so that you earn maximum possible profit when your hands do hold.

Daniel72 · Aug 15, 2012

I often used the strategy: rebuy and addon at the end of the rebuy stage, and played it like a normal tournament.
One question: some players rebuy so often in a $5.50 tourney, why dont they play no $109 tourney instead ??

jordanbillie · Aug 15, 2012

I prefer rebuys to freezouts and have a lot of success/good results from the rebuys. Everything stated is true, rebuy as much as possible, try to build a stack during the rebuy period, buy the addon, it's a deep stacked freezeout after the rebuy period.

PokerDoctor · Aug 15, 2012

Thank you for your replies Additional question?
Lets say initial buyin is 1500 chips and you can addon
another 1500. In the tournaments I play only a minority
seem to addon, so you would start with above average chips.
At what average chips stack- 4,000, 5,000, etc. for the tourn
if you were knocked out would you rebuy/addon 3,000 chips
before just taking that money and restarting another tourn?

Nooneinparticular · Aug 15, 2012

Basically, if doing this, and I do, then reby as hard as possibly and as often as possible. The key is to build a stack at the start, even if you rebuy 10 times. You are aiming to win, not get in the money if you do this. Ignore the people who whine when you beat them with 45s, they dont understand what your doing, and i marks them as tight players who dont know what they are doing, and should concentrate on freezeouts!

jordanbillie · Aug 16, 2012

PokerDoctor said:
At what average chips stack- 4,000, 5,000, etc. for the tourn
if you were knocked out would you rebuy/addon 3,000 chips
before just taking that money and restarting another tourn?

Never, you should never quit during the rebuy hour.

HotShotX · Aug 19, 2012

duggs said:
rebuy as often and as quickly as possible. if you can rebuy double stack, do it. if you can use 5 rebuys at once, do it. if you can addon, do it

DanziM said:
You should always be starting with the maximum available stack to maximise your winnings. This is the same concesus with cash games.....would you ever buyin for less than the max...no.

Rebuy to the max at the start and addon, use this bigger stack to your advantage.

Wanted to thank you two for those pieces of advice. I've not only started playing MTTs in general (something I haven't done before), but I've made it to the final table enough times (5 in the past week) to make it a net profit.

Adding on and Rebuying definitely changes your game and lets you be more aggressive, putting you in a good position with your stack by the first break (when rebuys are no longer allowed).

It's definitely changed up the way I play for the better. Thank you.

Weissr · Aug 23, 2012

jordanbillie said:
Never, you should never quit during the rebuy hour.

Hunh? What if a rebuy is only 4-5BB? Wouldn't it be smarter to use that money in a new tourney vs having to go all-in on the first hand you play?

jordanbillie · Aug 24, 2012

Weissr said:
Hunh? What if a rebuy is only 4-5BB? Wouldn't it be smarter to use that money in a new tourney vs having to go all-in on the first hand you play?

You should never voluntarily be eliminated from a tournament. If you enter a rebuy, you need to make sure it is at a level you are comfortable investing multiple units.

I understand your reasoning, but you are just comparing the 2 units at a very high blind level vs using that buyin towards a new MTT. You are not thinking about the money you have previously invested. Why would you forfeit multiple units already invested when you have the opportunity to still rebuy?

Weissr · Aug 24, 2012

jordanbillie said:
You should never voluntarily be eliminated from a tournament. If you enter a rebuy, you need to make sure it is at a level you are comfortable investing multiple units.

I understand your reasoning, but you are just comparing the 2 units at a very high blind level vs using that buyin towards a new MTT. You are not thinking about the money you have previously invested. Why would you forfeit multiple units already invested when you have the opportunity to still rebuy?

Exactly. The money you had previously invested is now gone (in business this is known as "sunk cost") and should not be involved in your decision making about investing more money. Rebuying at a very high blind level now shifts the game from being more about skill, to almost entirely about luck (the fish pool).

jordanbillie · Aug 24, 2012

The bottom line is that players like you make rebuys profitable for players like me.

jordanbillie · Aug 24, 2012

Here is a repost from 2009 on my rebuy strategy:

I SUGGEST READING THIS WHOLE POST IF YOU WANT SOME REBUY STRATEGY FROM A SUCCESSFUL REBUY PLAYER!!!!!!!

I have done very well in rebuys and they are A LOT easier to cash in than a normal freezout.

My strategy is this:

1) During rebuy stage, once there is one player (yes just one) who has used a rebuy or if there are any players with well over 1500 chips, YOU MUST REBUY! So 9 times out of 10, you are rebuying right off the bat before you see a hand. This is the same idea as always having the max buy-in at a cash game, you want to get max value when you hit a big hand.

2) See cheap flops, also if you find people raising a lot preflop with anything, pick a hand and come over the top and try to double up. Even if you think you are only 60/40, still come over the top and go for the early double up. During the rebuy period you want to take shots, because you can always rebuy and try again.

3) DON'T PLAY REBUYS IF YOU ARE SCARED TO REBUY.

4) Once you are about 10 mins or less away from the break and the end of the rebuy period you need to look at a couple things. If you haven't doubled up and are at 4000 or less in chips you want to start pushing every unraised pot for a chance at a lucky double up. Seriously, yes. The reason is the blinds are usually 50/100 at this stage and if you continue to play tight you will probably head into the break with 3400ish in chips. If you take those chances you will steal some blinds and maybe get a call, where you will either double up or bust and just rebuy back to 3000. So TAKE SHOTS LATE IN THE REBUY HOUR and DON'T BE AFRAID TO REBUY!

Now if you have a healthy stack of lets say 6000+ you don't want to take as many shots but still keep this concept in mind.

5) ALWAYS ADDON NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!! Some people say, "I don't addon if I have a big stack, there is no point." You most certainly have to addon in every single rebuy tournament you play. I see people refuse the addon so much and it boggles my mind. Obviously the goal of the tournament is to win, but you want to try to save 1 buy-in when you win??!?! If somebody who won the big $3r on stars without adding on, would they feel amazing about the $9,000 or whatever 1st place is, or would they feel amazing that they "saved" $3?!?!?! It is so crazy not to addon, yes even as chip leader, you need to addon.

6) With my rebuy strategy I average 3-5 buyins per tournament. The initial buy-in plus 1st rebuy and the addon. And occasionally I have to double rebuy if my big hand doesn't hold up or if I am getting low near the 1st break I will take some chances and possibly have to rebuy there. So according to my BR management I take the buy in of the rebuy and multiply by 4. If that is still less than 2% of my roll, I will play. (ex. $5 rebuy x 4 = $20, if I have a $1000 BR or higher I can play $5 rebuys)

A benefit of rebuys is a minimum cash is about 6-7x the buyin, so if you did decent and only are in for 4-5 buy-ins, you are doing good. Plus, a lot of people do not rebuy, so what this does is it essentially makes the 2nd portion of the tournament a deep stack with a very easy shot at cashing. (ex. The $5r PLO tournament on cake at 12:30 EST gets about 200 entrants. Once the rebuy period is over there are around 70 players left and cake pays top 40. If you played my strategy correctly, you are usually in a spot to cash even with just a modest stack.)

So yes this is a long post, but if you want to succeed at rebuys I HIGHLY RECOMMEND this approach. Again, I have done very well with rebuys and they are my favorite game to play!
_________________

GOIVIT · Aug 24, 2012

jordanbillie said:
Here is a repost from 2009 on my rebuy strategy:

I SUGGEST READING THIS WHOLE POST IF YOU WANT SOME REBUY STRATEGY FROM A SUCCESSFUL REBUY PLAYER!!!!!!!

I have done very well in rebuys and they are A LOT easier to cash in than a normal freezout.

My strategy is this:

1) During rebuy stage, once there is one player (yes just one) who has used a rebuy or if there are any players with well over 1500 chips, YOU MUST REBUY! So 9 times out of 10, you are rebuying right off the bat before you see a hand. This is the same idea as always having the max buy-in at a cash game, you want to get max value when you hit a big hand.

2) See cheap flops, also if you find people raising a lot preflop with anything, pick a hand and come over the top and try to double up. Even if you think you are only 60/40, still come over the top and go for the early double up. During the rebuy period you want to take shots, because you can always rebuy and try again.

3) DON'T PLAY REBUYS IF YOU ARE SCARED TO REBUY.

4) Once you are about 10 mins or less away from the break and the end of the rebuy period you need to look at a couple things. If you haven't doubled up and are at 4000 or less in chips you want to start pushing every unraised pot for a chance at a lucky double up. Seriously, yes. The reason is the blinds are usually 50/100 at this stage and if you continue to play tight you will probably head into the break with 3400ish in chips. If you take those chances you will steal some blinds and maybe get a call, where you will either double up or bust and just rebuy back to 3000. So TAKE SHOTS LATE IN THE REBUY HOUR and DON'T BE AFRAID TO REBUY!

Now if you have a healthy stack of lets say 6000+ you don't want to take as many shots but still keep this concept in mind.

5) ALWAYS ADDON NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!! Some people say, "I don't addon if I have a big stack, there is no point." You most certainly have to addon in every single rebuy tournament you play. I see people refuse the addon so much and it boggles my mind. Obviously the goal of the tournament is to win, but you want to try to save 1 buy-in when you win??!?! If somebody who won the big $3r on stars without adding on, would they feel amazing about the $9,000 or whatever 1st place is, or would they feel amazing that they "saved" $3?!?!?! It is so crazy not to addon, yes even as chip leader, you need to addon.

6) With my rebuy strategy I average 3-5 buyins per tournament. The initial buy-in plus 1st rebuy and the addon. And occasionally I have to double rebuy if my big hand doesn't hold up or if I am getting low near the 1st break I will take some chances and possibly have to rebuy there. So according to my BR management I take the buy in of the rebuy and multiply by 4. If that is still less than 2% of my roll, I will play. (ex. $5 rebuy x 4 = $20, if I have a $1000 BR or higher I can play $5 rebuys)

A benefit of rebuys is a minimum cash is about 6-7x the buyin, so if you did decent and only are in for 4-5 buy-ins, you are doing good. Plus, a lot of people do not rebuy, so what this does is it essentially makes the 2nd portion of the tournament a deep stack with a very easy shot at cashing. (ex. The $5r PLO tournament on cake at 12:30 EST gets about 200 entrants. Once the rebuy period is over there are around 70 players left and cake pays top 40. If you played my strategy correctly, you are usually in a spot to cash even with just a modest stack.)

So yes this is a long post, but if you want to succeed at rebuys I HIGHLY RECOMMEND this approach. Again, I have done very well with rebuys and they are my favorite game to play!
_________________

Very interesting read. I'm not a big fan of R&A's but I usually follow very closely to your strategy.

dj11 · Aug 24, 2012

Having made good money in R&A's playing them both ways, cheap and tight, or loose and expensive, I only use how I am feeling about the game I brought to the table to help me decide which method.

They can get expensive toward the end of the rebuy period where 1 rebuy only covers the blinds, and many rebuys in a row can add up. In the merge rebuys, many offer huge add-ons (like 30K chips), which end up being a great equalizer.

I will always rebuy early and give that a chance at working before sliding into mad max mode.

Seldom will I allow myself to quit before the add-on. Only when I realize I only brought my 'C' game, and the cards suck.

Weissr · Aug 24, 2012

jordanbillie said:
The bottom line is that players like you make rebuys profitable for players like me.

Might be a good idea to not make unsubstantiated assumptions about other players. Do you seriously believe that your strategy is the only winning strategy?
Stating earlier that you should rebuy as much as possible and never give up during the rebuy period could mean putting in 15-20 rebuys if your hands don't hold up when continually getting it in bad (as advised). Is that a profitable play?

I am almost certain that there is a time in the tournament when re-buying is less profitable than starting a new tournament, in the long run. It just seems obvious. If you disagree with this then that is fine. Obviously there are many factors involved.

jordanbillie · Aug 25, 2012

Weissr said:
Might be a good idea to not make unsubstantiated assumptions about other players. Do you seriously believe that your strategy is the only winning strategy?
Stating earlier that you should rebuy as much as possible and never give up during the rebuy period could mean putting in 15-20 rebuys if your hands don't hold up when continually getting it in bad (as advised). Is that a profitable play?

I am almost certain that there is a time in the tournament when re-buying is less profitable than starting a new tournament, in the long run. It just seems obvious. If you disagree with this then that is fine. Obviously there are many factors involved.

It's not an assumption. Rebuys are juicy because of the players who elect not to rebuy.

Weissr · Aug 25, 2012

jordanbillie said:
It's not an assumption. Rebuys are juicy because of the players who elect not to rebuy.

I guess by not replying to what's in my post, you are not disagreeing with what I am saying.

All I was basically getting at in this thread is suggesting that rebuying at the very end of the rebuy period might not be the most optimal strategy in the long run as that money may be better spent elsewhere, ie. another tourney. I am not saying this is for certain, it just seems logical. Totally up for debate tho.

And rebuys are juicy because of the people who actually rebuy. Think about it, a super donk who continually re-buys/busts all the way through the rebuy period is massively juicing the pot. There is however some small added value to players who only buyin once, as you said, but nothing in comparison to the former.

As far as what I said about you making unsubstantiated assumptions about other players; your comment:

jordanbillie said:
The bottom line is that players like you make rebuys profitable for players like me.

You are assuming that I personally play a certain way, and also that your strategy is the only winning strategy for these types of tournaments. Both of which may not be true.

jordanbillie · Aug 25, 2012

How do you possibly expect to profit in the long run if you decide to quit after rebuying several times. Would you call 95% of your stack and then fold river because the 5bb would be better "saved" for another hand?

HotShotX · Aug 25, 2012

Great post, jordan. I definitely appreciate you offered such good advice for those still new to Rebuys (like me). I've cashed in a few using your advice and others, and I think once I tighten up my play, I'm going to be in a good position each MTT.

CANDYMAN1414 · Aug 25, 2012

I hate rebuys. Dont think its fair you knock someone out then they rebuy more chips than u took. I prefer bountys or str8 up no rebuy tourneys. Not to mention its usually right after the rebuy period ends when you usually get knocked out and its too late.

CANDYMAN1414 · Aug 25, 2012

And the first hour when rebuys are offered people shove with bullshit cards. And then you loose with Kings or Queens to 6 8 suited and feel like breaking your computer over the chair. (you all know its happened, lol)

Rebuy vs Freezout

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