If you're going to play a rebuy, it's +ev to always double rebuy and to invest more than 1 shot in it.
They seem gimmicky to me and generally not rewarding of good players and good play.
Do you avoid them as a rule? Play them and change your strategy? How?
I usually just play on my original BI, if I make it to the break I use the add-on.
My prefered way to play is to buy in once and make the most of it. I would like for that to be my only investment in the tournament. If you get busted out, but want to play, you can rebuy and maybe rebuy for double. The problem is now you have 3x buy ins invested. You need to cash now!
I would suggest not rebuying more than once. You will be on tilt and have invested too much to make it up without going pretty far. Just take a break or go play a different game for a while.
The add on is a good deal relative to your initial buy in. Usually 2000 chips when the buy in was 1500. Typically 20BB when it happens. It is usually worth taking, unless you have a very big or very small stack.
If you're going to play a rebuy, it's +ev to always double rebuy and to invest more than 1 shot in it.
I guess you have to really be doing something wrong to necessitate more than two double rebuys before the cut off.
Good info here. I have had some success both with a double buy in and a single. I have also cashed with the double buy in plus add on at the cut off break.
The points about thinking of the pre-add on period as an initial investment period separate from the tournament after registration locks and considering the rebuy after busting a separate tournament entry are good ones. My issue was/is thinking of it as investing more in the same game (prize pool) vs. a whole new one. That makes a difference in how to view cashing.
I guess you have to really be doing something wrong to necessitate more than two double rebuys before the cut off. So, would 5BI invested be a limit? Do you even set one as long as the prize pool is good? I remember reading that you want last cashing position to pay for at least three buy ins (1 Initial, 1 Rebuy/Double, & 1 Add On).
I want to invest as little as possible, but with good returns. I have always liked deep stack tournaments and when I originally played the rebuys, I did so using the double buy in play. I appreciate the increase in variance that it provides. After taking some bad losses early in tournaments due to poor plays by both me and some opponents, I changed my game plan. If you guys think starting the game that way is the best risk/reward play, I'll go back that strategy for a bit.
Let's say you bust 4BI rebuying in the early stages of a tournament. Instead of rebuying again, you and play another tournament, which costs 2BI.
What's the difference between doing this and rebuying for another 2BI? Nothing.
And it's +EV to double rebuy because any edge is exaggerated.
BTW, don't follow the above strategy. Play tight in the early stages as you want to make it to the addon stage cos the addon is where the added value on. Plus even a quadruple up in the first level is worth nothing by the middle stages of a tournament. You'll be burning money doing the above - A8s should not be opened UTG and should not be calling a 3 way all in, simple.
The 2R1A's are awesome. You can start with 7500 chips and have double or triple what others on the table have.
Actually I don't have a problem with his strategy- at the right table. If everyone is tight I wouldn't do it. But at a gambly table? I just might.
if we are likely getting 3 or 4 allins, I'm stuffing my 89ss in there every time for example.
You are at a tremendous disadvantage when 3 guys are gambling it up and sitting on 36k stacks when you have9k hitting the addon. They have inifinitely better chances to win.
Well...you can wait the entire rebuy period and never find the hand you want if you're playing a table full of maniacs. And of course, when you do wait 35 minutes of the rebuy period to ship QQ pre and get 3-4 callers with random Axs/78s/etc. you will lose your QQ over 50% of the time. I pay $$ to get a big stack early because I feel I can leverage said big-stack (post rebuy period) to drastically increase my chances of winning the tournament. Which is worth a great deal more than the 3-4 more buy-ins i spend (on average) getting a big stack.No you don't? When you hit final table average will be like 1 million each. Taking gambles at the beginning in 3/4 way pots with hands that are never going to have decent equity against ridic ranges isn't sensible - they are spewer gamblers, wait til you've got a half decent hand and iso them HU...
^^^^ This part I likeAnd it's play to win, not play to mincash and get my money back. ALL profit is in the top 3's. Everything else just gets you to breakeven. Ultimately that is the argument for playing/paying for a stack early.
Well...you can wait the entire rebuy period and never find the hand you want if you're playing a table full of maniacs. And of course, when you do wait 35 minutes of the rebuy period to ship QQ pre and get 3-4 callers with random Axs/78s/etc. you will lose your QQ over 50% of the time. I pay $$ to get a big stack early because I feel I can leverage said big-stack (post rebuy period) to drastically increase my chances of winning the tournament. Which is worth a great deal more than the 3-4 more buy-ins i spend (on average) getting a big stack.
Also...who cares that 20k chips means almost nothing by the time you're deep in the tournament? We're not playing crazy so we can have a 20k stack at some random middle/late stage of the tournament. We gamble to have those 20k chips when the blinds are 75/150 and so we can grow it to those millions that much more easily.
edit: of course, as Bonflizubi said, it's all about your table. If my table during the rebuy period is full of nut peddlers I won't shove my stack around willy-nilly...I'll probably cry to myself a little (damn tightwads!) and play more of a standard game.
^^^^ This part I like
No offense, but I'm going to be honest here. You are dead/scared money adding to my equity pool in that tourny. You are at a HUGE disadvantage and shouldn't play these types of tournies as they are a bad value for you. on one bullet, you will be pushed off marginal hands that yo ushould be gambling with. Also, any good player will notice who is playing without the initial rebuy, and immediately know they are bad.
Why? Because you are not maximizing your chances.
Not harsh so much as wrong.What does it matter how many chips you have at in the early stages anyway? If you are chip leader with 20k and 2nd place has 5k, that's great, but your effective stack at most is 5k. There is no incentive to go around calling off light early in a tournament with a massive number of runners, and I don't agree that having a big stack gives you that much more leverage during the middle stacks - it does during late stages when you can bully nits around who want to make pay jumps, but in the middle stages it's just comfortable as opposed to a huge advantage.
I know all profit is in the top 3, there is no need to tell me. What I'm saying is that getting a big stack is burning you money, not getting you into the top 3. Having a big stack with 1k gone in a 5k runner tournament is fairly irrelevant in the long term as to your chances of winning the tournament.
Seems to me a lot of attempted justification for gambling with bad hands, shoving light, seeing lots of flops, etc, as opposed to any decent arguments. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
I'm not sure you're speaking of the same kind of rebuy tournaments we are. The tournaments we discuss start in a rebuy period that lasts a finite amount of time so there is never an option to rebuy in the middle of the tournament. You'll also never see one of these lose 80% of its field before the rebuy period is over. That would just be absurd...and a huge profit to anyone that just spent the $$ to stick around.So let me get this straight, lets say I play in a re-buy/add on tourney....170 people get in, we are down to the last 20 and i'm in with my original BI then people know that I am bad?
I don't want too play marginal hands early and if it don't work out then just re-buy. I think that is a donk logic, I have played 3 re-buy/add-on tourneys in the last 5 days, 2 of them I cashed in and I never once re-bought (I did add-on in all.)
Usually in the early stages in these tourneys on Carbon all you have to do is play tight and wait till you have a good hand, and when you do just push all in and a donk will call with something weak. I think you have to wait till you get put out to re-buy in the Carbon tourneys, you can't just add your stack during the tourney. I don't know if you can just add to your stack in the middle of a tourney on a tourney on other sites like PS and Fultilt.
Standard ICM modeling essentially assumes that your equity for finishing the tournament in first is directly related to your chip stack. So your odds of taking first at any given time, according to ICM, is 'stack size/total chips in tournament'. From there they use some recursive math to work out odds of taking 2nd/3rd/etc., do some averaging and voila: you get your $EV.
The point is that as far as ICM is concerned your odds of finishing 1st are directly proportional to your stack size at any given time. So having more chips = better odds of first. If I have double your stack, ICM assumes I'm twice as likely to take 1st..
The first part is definitely true. I alluded to it in my post where I discussed effective stacks. To the second part of the post, I don't think running multi street bluffs at the micros ever makes any sense, let alone if you feel that it will fail enough that you need enough chips in your stack to cover the ones you've lost.Having more chips and deeper stacks means you have more options open to you. There is more merit to running a multi street bluff because you have the stacks to apply appropriate pressure and the opponents have the chips to fold.