Is this really a slow roll???

So I recently in an £80 poker tournament (I think thats like $100 to you guys) played a hand against a professional circuit player who has played in many Europeen poker tour events. The other players on the table recognised him and pointed it out once he was busted.

I knew the guy was a very strong player picked up on that did not know he was on that level though. So I am been called mr slow roll now after I won an all in pot against him. He put me all in and I time banked to think, apparently that is slow rolling because this is an instant call apparently (it is a definite call and I will explain why in a bit but I dont think its instant snap.)

So here is the hand he raises in middle position to 800 when blinds are 100 200. I look down at AK of spades. I am sitting either right behind him or two seats behind him forgot the exact position. for a split second I thing about either raising or folding but I opt to call rather then raise for a few reasons. Firstly bigger raise then normal maybe he has a hand like 1010 JJ do I really want to get 3 bet and find myself flipping? a re raise could chase out dominated hands like KQ AQ AJ etc. also if he has AQ or AJ the flat call can be kind of trappy.

Now we go to the flop the flop comes A42 rainbow with one spade. the pot is now 1900 (800+800+the blinds of 100 and 200) he bets 1400 into pot at this point I am feeling confident I am ahead so just opt to call to extra more value on future streets.

the turn comes the 6 of spades giving me the nut flush draw and top pair top kicker. he checks to me. the pot is now 4700 (800+800+100+200+1400+1400) I bet 2600 into pot I was aiming for a bit more then half pot. he instantly shoves on me he check raised shoved the turn.

I have 8500 chips behind. so now I get worried this looks like it could be two pair or a set what have i walked into? I go into time bank mode first thing is to work out what odds I am getting here so with my 2600 going into the pot and him matching my 2600 there is now 4700+5200=9900 and then there is an additional 8500=18400 so I am looking at calling of 8500 to win 18400 or putting in 8500 and if i win I get back 26900. I need to win about 31.6% of the time to be profitable here of course my arithmatic at the table isn't that precise so I went with 1 time in 3. 2 to 1 odds.

Now I work out what hands he could do that with. there is a total bluff but that seems a bit strange so I dont count that for much. there are 10 permutations of sets out there 22 44 66 3 of each of these and 1 permutation of AA. so against these I am drawing to a flush minus the 2 4 of spades as that completes full houses or Quads so 8 outs of 46 cards i round to 20% its really 17.4%. for these hands I am obviously not getting the odds but now we have two pair hands A6 A4 A2 I could see him doing this with suited permutations but not off suit but I assumed off suit in my workings so 6 permutations of each of these making 18 hands against this range I am drawing to 9 flush cards and 3 kinds so 12 out of 46 slightly better then 25% (its actually 26.1% but I rounded to 25%) again against these hands I do not have the odds to draw. I am getting 2-1 which is bad for a 3-1 call.

Now I also think he could realistically do this with AQ, AJ, A10 there is one Ace in my hand and an Ace on the board so I think 8 permutations of each of these so 24 permutations. now obviously against this range I have him crushed. he could opt to make this play assuming I have a middle pair type hand and opting to get me to put chips in and then stack me.

knowing that there are 28 hands he has that beat me and 24 that I have crushed with the pots odds I am getting I think I am more likely to be beat then not but odds I am been offered are too good, and I have re draws i finally opt to call.

He turns over A10 I scoop the pot with a blank on the river.

I have gotten so much ridicule for this saying it is an obvious instant snap call I am been called mr slow roll that is now my nickname at the local casino and they even took some of my coursework out of my pocket wrote mr slow roll on it and said i dropped this ( or I did drop it but i think they just plucked it for the that lol)

this is a Call for the reasons I explained what the debate is, is whether one should take time to think about it or if its a snap call instant. I personally think its a sign of a weaker player to snap call this without thought, do you guys think this is a snap call or a time bank first???

This is not a slow roll is it?

note my math is bad for final pot sixe dont know i did that i have little sleep but you guys get the idea anyway

not a slow roll.

Tell them either 'nothing'... or say "Oh ok.. I didn't know. I must be more of a fish than I thought (as you rake in another pot &/or send another to the rail)"

it was not a slow-roll because you did not have the nuts, and many hands were beating you

odranorkan said:

it was not a slow-roll because you did not have the nuts, and many hands were beating you

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my feelings exactly I think a fold here would have been bad but I don't think it would have been terrible. obviously a call is the correct play for the reasons I gave and the hand break down etc.

Just the idea I should be straight in without a moments hesitation does not seem right.

I think the point could be that all your thoughts could and should have been the thoughts on the flop, and you should have already known whether to call an all-in bet. The 6 of spades doesn't add anything to the situation but giving you a lot of more outs which would make me think that your call could actually be faster on the turn.

Yet, I am really no expert here and far from judging you - it's just the idea I got.

hermaeris said:

I think the point could be that all your thoughts could and should have been the thoughts on the flop, and you should have already known whether to call an all-in bet. The 6 of spades doesn't add anything to the situation but giving you a lot of more outs which would make me think that your call could actually be faster on the turn.

Yet, I am really no expert here and far from judging you - it's just the idea I got.

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quite a few players say you should have plans for future streets on the flop straight away but then things that happen can surprise you.

In theory you are right but in actual play it does not work like that. Eg once he bets into me again on the turn I was planning on a flat call again to raise the river or put in a big river bet if he checks to me on the river. I plan to take the lead and bet if he checks the turn as well.

I was not expecting a check raise shove. bet flop bet turn and shove on river I would have little trouble calling off.

on the flop my thoughts are not that hard He has a reasonably large range from middle position eg 55+ A10+ AXs KJ+ QJs K10s J10s 109s are all reasonable ranges to open from middle position. He is potentially tighter or looser then that but this is a reasonable range to assume. 22 and 44 did not enter my mind at this point. on the turn he has checked so my natural thoughts is he might have KQ QJ or some form of middle pair. the check shove suddenly wakes me up.

I think putting your oppenant on hand ranges is one thing but working out your odds and everything else etc the way I mathed that hand is not realistic for every single street when the pot is relativity small. otherwise I would take a minute for every single decision.

Definitely not a slow roll, you did the right thing waiting and thinking about your odds. Good job and good decision!

LukeSilver said:

quite a few players say you should have plans for future streets on the flop straight away but then things that happen can surprise you.

In theory you are right but in actual play it does not work like that. Eg once he bets into me again on the turn I was planning on a flat call again to raise the river or put in a big river bet if he checks to me on the river. I plan to take the lead and bet if he checks the turn as well.

I was not expecting a check raise shove. bet flop bet turn and shove on river I would have little trouble calling off.

on the flop my thoughts are not that hard He has a reasonably large range from middle position eg 55+ A10+ AXs KJ+ QJs K10s J10s 109s are all reasonable ranges to open from middle position. He is potentially tighter or looser then that but this is a reasonable range to assume. 22 and 44 did not enter my mind at this point. on the turn he has checked so my natural thoughts is he might have KQ QJ or some form of middle pair. the check shove suddenly wakes me up.

I think putting your oppenant on hand ranges is one thing but working out your odds and everything else etc the way I mathed that hand is not realistic for every single street when the pot is relativity small. otherwise I would take a minute for every single decision.

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Those were my thoughts, too, that you might have been surprised by the move. And I am the last person who can say "Well you should have taken that into account before!" My understanding was that you would also have called an all-in on the flop, and from there, the board improved for you, so one might also snap call. Still, it is nothing completely obvious, and if you hadn't calculated your odds, you wouldn't have learned so much, because when you just win, you forget the odds.

By definition, it was of course NO slow roll - because it is definitely not what you did. You were busy calculating and not making your adversary believe he won.

Not a slow roll, we all have so limited time to think about
our hands, use all the time you need to make up your mind.

Its not a slowroll. Slowrolling and nitrolling are very different.

I hate getting check raised on the turn it always ruins my floats. Not sure why he jammed on you but you did correct not to fold out the weaker aces.

I understand how players who are not in the hand can react and say that it is a slowroll. And this is particularly often in live games then online.
Think of it this way: online, you have 30secs to act and a time bank of a minute or so, if you waste the bank then every decision needs to be made quickly, and nowadays, everyone plays online.
People are more likely to play faster live too because of that, and make quicker decisions, which is why they may think of your play as too slow, when you showed a better hand they just labeled it as a slow-roll. Wouldn't take it too serious.

In my eyes def not a slowroll.
Let them say what they want, but i like the way you looked at the math part(wich takes some time).

I would not consider this a slow roll. It’s definitely a spot where you need to call and it’s an easy call. You are obviously a very cautious player and you wanted to evaluate the situation. Although with the chips you already committed to the pot and the chips you have remaining you shouldn’t be considering a fold. You are drawing to the nut flush and you have a strong holding as is. If he has you beat so be it.

it was not slow roll

As others have said , IMO i would not say its a slow roll, a slow roll is when you have the nuts , but you defiantly don't in this situation, people just being salty

I don't believe there is anything wrong with the way you played the hand at all. If it where me I would have snap called and either made the correct call or got busted by trips one of the two.