Ranging LOOSE players - with limited time

theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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I put in several hours a week off the felt. Everyone has their own particular process for studying so I won't go into detail on how I study. However I think its important to DO, and dedicate time towards improving away from the tables.

One issue that I struggle with - in IMPORTANT spots is player turn timer management. I find it difficult to make an informed decision in the limited time we have during our turn, usually this is on the turn or river facing a shove, when holding a very strong hand.

I find myself mystified at a shove when the range I put the opponent on doesn't jive with any NUT hand a person would shove with, and the timer ticks down...

I don't really have any anxiety in those spots, more like confusion.

I find myself attempting to process something that is completely unexpected, a new range that I'm dominated by, with EVERY bluff that is available. And the time continues to tick down.....

I do not play turbos often, maybe 1-2 bi-weekly , but when I do - these tough decisions are of course amplified by the shorter amount of time.

At the micro stakes I've come to learn a shove on the turn - in my estimate - roughly 70% is the nuts. And a shove on the river is 50/50. I know that is simplistic and a lot more goes into making a sound judgement call on a river shove.


So here is a question - When you are crushed by a river shove by a player that hits a flush or straight on the river - when that opponent opened some questionable hands from EP - like Q/5 s or T/8 o, if you manage to stay in the tournament beyond that point and are able to play more hands with that opponent, HOW on EARTH do you properly range that opponent - in the limited time we have?
If you later face that opponent in other events - how do you play him? How do you range his hand?

My answer has been to play tighter and call them down, but - this feels very PASSIVE to me and it's quite opposite of how play, and opposite of how I've performed well.

I guess their are two questions here - what solutions have you managed to utilize to process the high amount of information we have to process in short time frames - when facing a BIG decision / shove?

One of my favorite lines Scott Seiver said "There's nothing quite like having the second NUTS".
 
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eetenor

eetenor

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Illusion of Control

I put in several hours a week off the felt. Everyone has their own particular process for studying so I won't go into detail on how I study. However I think its important to DO, and dedicate time towards improving away from the tables.

One issue that I struggle with - in IMPORTANT spots is player turn timer management. I find it difficult to make an informed decision in the limited time we have during our turn, usually this is on the turn or river facing a shove, when holding a very strong hand.

I find myself mystified at a shove when the range I put the opponent on doesn't jive with any NUT hand a person would shove with, and the timer ticks down...

I don't really have any anxiety in those spots, more like confusion.

I find myself attempting to process something that is completely unexpected, a new range that I'm dominated by, with EVERY bluff that is available. And the time continues to tick down.....

I do not play turbos often, maybe 1-2 bi-weekly , but when I do - these tough decisions are of course amplified by the shorter amount of time.

At the micro stakes I've come to learn a shove on the turn - in my estimate - roughly 70% is the nuts. And a shove on the river is 50/50. I know that is simplistic and a lot more goes into making a sound judgement call on a river shove.


So here is a question - When you are crushed by a river shove by a player that hits a flush or straight on the river - when that opponent opened some questionable hands from EP - like Q/5 s or T/8 o, if you manage to stay in the tournament beyond that point and are able to play more hands with that opponent, HOW on EARTH do you properly range that opponent - in the limited time we have?
If you later face that opponent in other events - how do you play him? How do you range his hand?

My answer has been to play tighter and call them down, but - this feels very PASSIVE to me and it's quite opposite of how play, and opposite of how I've performed well.

I guess their are two questions here - what solutions have you managed to utilize to process the high amount of information we have to process in short time frames - when facing a BIG decision / shove?

One of my favorite lines Scott Seiver said "There's nothing quite like having the second NUTS".


Thanks for posting.

Great question.
As my title says you seem to be looking for a level of control which might not be possible. You even use the term solutions when dealing with a player that plays in a manner which is unsolvable on an individual hand basis.

You do take notes yes?
With this type of player our notes have to be in more detail.
We need to try to find patterns in their play flop -turn and river.
We are looking for timing tells. Bet sizing tells. Aggression timing tells. IE bluffs on rivers not turns or reverse. Leads flop or turn with draws etc.
We also want to try to know how often they bluff vs value shove

When we lose to their nut shove we must dissect the hand looking for any indicators that they repeat in similar situations or are missing when they bluff.
Again from flop- turn and river.

We then have this in our notes to try to get us from 50-50 to 55-45 or better.

Then there is the online I play 50 tournaments a day response.

Call it if it is 50-50 and move on.

Hope this helps

:):)
 
57noona

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Thanks for posting.

Great question.
As my title says you seem to be looking for a level of control which might not be possible. You even use the term solutions when dealing with a player that plays in a manner which is unsolvable on an individual hand basis.

You do take notes yes?
With this type of player our notes have to be in more detail.
We need to try to find patterns in their play flop -turn and river.
We are looking for timing tells. Bet sizing tells. Aggression timing tells. IE bluffs on rivers not turns or reverse. Leads flop or turn with draws etc.
We also want to try to know how often they bluff vs value shove


When we lose to their nut shove we must dissect the hand looking for any indicators that they repeat in similar situations or are missing when they bluff.
Again from flop- turn and river.

We then have this in our notes to try to get us from 50-50 to 55-45 or better.

Then there is the online I play 50 tournaments a day response.

Call it if it is 50-50 and move on.

Hope this helps

:):)
I agree the answer is in the betting patterns that is in our notes on the player. The more notes you have on the player the better your decision will be.
 
Luvepoker

Luvepoker

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It is never easy to play against a loose player. It can also be next to impossible to put them on a consistent accurate range. The thing that helped me deal with these players were just to study them. The more you watch them and the more hands you see at showdown the more you will learn from them and about them. As other have said note are important. If you see them raise UTG with Q5s put that into your notes and look at what other hands are of the same value. Just remember, no matter how hard you try to read them there style makes it impossible to be right all the time.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Great Input

Thanks for posting.
Great question.
As my title says you seem to be looking for a level of control which might not be possible.
You do take notes yes?
With this type of player our notes have to be in more detail.
We need to try to find patterns in their play flop -turn and river.
We are looking for timing tells. Bet sizing tells. Aggression timing tells. IE bluffs on rivers not turns or reverse. Leads flop or turn with draws etc.
We also want to try to know how often they bluff vs value shove

When we lose to their nut shove we must dissect the hand looking for any indicators that they repeat in similar situations or are missing when they bluff.
Again from flop- turn and river.
:):)

I agree the answer is in the betting patterns that is in our notes on the player. The more notes you have on the player the better your decision will be.

It is never easy to play against a loose player. It can also be next to impossible to put them on a consistent accurate range. The thing that helped me deal with these players were just to study them. The more you watch them and the more hands you see at showdown the more you will learn from them and about them. As other have said note are important. If you see them raise UTG with Q5s put that into your notes and look at what other hands are of the same value. Just remember, no matter how hard you try to read them there style makes it impossible to be right all the time.

Thanks for the input. You are all in sync with your reposes and have given me a good direction to proceed.
I do take notes often - I will definitely add any confirmed tells to them for loose players. I take pride that I have the ability to paying attention at all times, even when not in a hand. I need to take that information gained and detail it better so it's more useful to me in the future.
Gotta love the complexities and nuances of this game!
 
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