Random SNG Thoughts/Strategy.

WiZZiM · Jul 29, 2010

I will be posting a few thoughts and plays here in this thread in the upcoming weeks, just a place for all the little nuances that we can use to help improve our game. It will not really follow a particular trend, but when i think of something i feel is good/important, i will post it here.

The first one is about showing holecards.

Now, there is only one time i will ever show cards in a SNG. It's a strategy desinged to get us more fold equity in later blind levels. THe idea behind it is this. We are shoving, blind vs blind with blinds at 100/200.

We get dealt a nice hand, let's say AJs. We obviously want to shove this, no question there. But in situations like this, where we actually hold a strong hand, and if i have time(not mass multitabling) i like to show my opponents my strong cards, in the hope that he will remember it in later shoving rounds. The idea is he may think twice about calling with stuff like Ax in future rounds. This is a play designed mainly for bad players, really good one's will probably know what we are doing, and/or know that we will be shoving loose later. It's a play that can probably work against semi-ok regs though. But it's something i feel can add to our fold equity.

Tangerine 53 · Jul 29, 2010

I've never tried this Wizzim (I have a policy of never showing) but will give it a go - look forward to seeing your other pearls of wisdom over the next few weeks!

WiZZiM · Jul 29, 2010

Pearls? more like odd shaped rocks, but nevertheless, should be an interesting thread. I encourage anyone who has a little trick or play that they use to post here also. Hopefully can get some discussion going.

buzzmania · Jul 29, 2010

I have to agree ,it works really well for me most of the time and it dont hurt to show a small pair to confuse them.a beginner player that is and it has helped me when playing heads up to..But remember what works for me may not work for you.

bullishwwd · Jul 29, 2010

WiZZiM said:
I will be posting a few thoughts and plays here in this thread in the upcoming weeks, just a place for all the little nuances that we can use to help improve our game. It will not really follow a particular trend, but when i think of something i feel is good/important, i will post it here.

The first one is about showing holecards.

Now, there is only one time i will ever show cards in a SNG. It's a strategy desinged to get us more fold equity in later blind levels. THe idea behind it is this. We are shoving, blind vs blind with blinds at 100/200.

We get dealt a nice hand, let's say AJs. We obviously want to shove this, no question there. But in situations like this, where we actually hold a strong hand, and if i have time(not mass multitabling) i like to show my opponents my strong cards, in the hope that he will remember it in later shoving rounds. The idea is he may think twice about calling with stuff like Ax in future rounds. This is a play designed mainly for bad players, really good one's will probably know what we are doing, and/or know that we will be shoving loose later. It's a play that can probably work against semi-ok regs though. But it's something i feel can add to our fold equity.

Sounds like a plan... shoving with AJ s might well be my last hand for that SnG though since I'd likely have just faced an AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs,AQs, pp... For example, I seriously lost two 135 person SnGs (RUSH) last night "in a row" with AQs and the villian had QQ and he hit the Q on the flop once and the turn the next time... not same villian though (that would have been too much).

I do show sometimes to build a specific image, good or bad, for future playing and fold equity. Good point.

Wally

OzExorcist · Jul 29, 2010

Not so much a play, but something that's served me well at the lower levels:

Right after the bubble bursts, and again once the game goes from three-handed to heads up, try to take a few hands to reassess how your opponents are playing. Time and time again at the $1/$2/$5/$6 levels I've come across players whose style changes completely as soon as they get into the money.

There are two common ones I've come across: the first is the players who've been nit-tight on the bubble and then lose their minds and start shoving all sorts of random garbage as soon as they make it into the money. If you recognise this in a player, make sure you're adjusting your calling ranges to suit.

The other common one is the player who'd previously been aggressive but then suddenly turns weak-tight when they get to heads up. Steal from these ones with gay abandon.

WiZZiM · Jul 31, 2010

OzExorcist said:
Not so much a play, but something that's served me well at the lower levels:

Right after the bubble bursts, and again once the game goes from three-handed to heads up, try to take a few hands to reassess how your opponents are playing. Time and time again at the $1/$2/$5/$6 levels I've come across players whose style changes completely as soon as they get into the money.

There are two common ones I've come across: the first is the players who've been nit-tight on the bubble and then lose their minds and start shoving all sorts of random garbage as soon as they make it into the money. If you recognise this in a player, make sure you're adjusting your calling ranges to suit.

The other common one is the player who'd previously been aggressive but then suddenly turns weak-tight when they get to heads up. Steal from these ones with gay abandon.

Yeah i know what you mean, it was one of my biggest leaks, i'm usually quite aggressive on the bubble, when i can be. But then didn't change gears and tighten up for the first part of ITM play, result was lots of 3rds, slowly correcting my play, but it's solid thinking, Don't know how many times i've shoved a hand like KT from the button and got snapped by 87s and silly hands like that.

WiZZiM · Jul 31, 2010

Next one is probably one a lot of you do already, but it involves trying to get more fold equity in high blind play, with a shallow stack.

Lets say we have 1380 chips, and we decide we want to shvoe from the button into two larger stacks. the blinds are 200/400. We know if we shove, we're getting called by a fairly wide range of hands. So to try and manufacture some fold equity i will not shove all in, ill raise to what looks like a standard 3x bet, so 1200 chips.

This play is extremely effective vs multitabling regs, who may not notice we only have about 100 chips behind. It's also a great play to try when you have very little fold equity. Like if your opponant is priced into calling your bet, lets say we have now 880 chips, blinds at 2/400, instead of shoving, and likely getting snap called, raise to 800, youd be suprised how often it works.

The one thing you want to watch out for, is if you do make this play, please don't accidentally hit the fold button (been there, done that.)

.

Rldetheflop · Jul 31, 2010

sometimes in low buy-in stt's, If I pick up AA or KK in the first few hands of the tourney to just open shove my stack. To me Big PP's in early blind play are virtually useless so if everyone folds its probably only slightly less than you will win anyway. I have noticed in the first few hands you can often get called by AJ or a pair of 8's. Plus it kind of gives the image that you are a donk.

pat3392 · Aug 2, 2010

Rldetheflop said:
sometimes in low buy-in stt's, If I pick up AA or KK in the first few hands of the tourney to just open shove my stack. To me Big PP's in early blind play are virtually useless so if everyone folds its probably only slightly less than you will win anyway. I have noticed in the first few hands you can often get called by AJ or a pair of 8's. Plus it kind of gives the image that you are a donk.

open shove? what limits do you play?

This is something I used with lot's of success in MTT but not so sure with STT; basically when short stacked but not short enough for push fold mode, raise preflop basically everytime if folded around to and in decent position. When raising make it something like 2.2 BB, just a tad bit more than 2 BB. People look at 2BB as a min-raise and call surprisingly a lot lighter than 2.1/2.2 BB. Try to make it a rather solid looking number i.e 900 not 887 or something.

Don't feel compelled to do c-bets; they will get one in trouble I found if done too much with these raises. The reason why they are profitable is because how often one can pick it up preflop; c-bets and hitting disguised monsters is just a alternative method to make chips

Not sure if this is obvious to some of you but when I plugged a huge leak in my game once I started doing this

EDIT: I'm not sure about how often to show hands; I tend to show my big hands when pushing late game so that I get more respect but I think it may not be a good idea; people probably realise that I am showing my strong hands and mucking my bluffs. Harrington mentioned in his book that some player had success with that since the players remembered the big hands but maybe that is something more for live play. When I show people my hands live they expect me to show them again and if I don't they immediately get suspicious so I'm not sure

Rldetheflop · Aug 2, 2010

pat3392 said:
open shove? what limits do you play?

This is something I used with lot's of success in MTT but not so sure with STT; basically when short stacked but not short enough for push fold mode, raise preflop basically everytime if folded around to and in decent position. When raising make it something like 2.2 BB, just a tad bit more than 2 BB. People look at 2BB as a min-raise and call surprisingly a lot lighter than 2.1/2.2 BB. Try to make it a rather solid looking number i.e 900 not 887 or something.

Don't feel compelled to do c-bets; they will get one in trouble I found if done too much with these raises. The reason why they are profitable is because how often one can pick it up preflop; c-bets and hitting disguised monsters is just a alternative method to make chips

Not sure if this is obvious to some of you but when I plugged a huge leak in my game once I started doing this

EDIT: I'm not sure about how often to show hands; I tend to show my big hands when pushing late game so that I get more respect but I think it may not be a good idea; people probably realise that I am showing my strong hands and mucking my bluffs. Harrington mentioned in his book that some player had success with that since the players remembered the big hands but maybe that is something more for live play. When I show people my hands live they expect me to show them again and if I don't they immediately get suspicious so I'm not sure

I usually play the 3-5 dollars limits. I am not advocating this as a standard play. The thought behind this is: in the first few hands of a stt you can get ppl to call you with A 10 or 66+ or whatever because they havent invested much time and if they lose they just move on to the next tourney. If no one calls you pretty much win what you were going to anyway.

dj11 · Aug 2, 2010

The only time I generally show is when in a walked bb, and I have an awful hand.

Other than that I generally never show, and even avoid looking (impossible online, but I try) when others do.

Long ago when I actually did do well at MTT's and SnG's my philosophy was much more survival oriented, and less big hand/good odds oriented. I think I need to get back to the survival mode of thought.

We all need to learn to spot, and deal with the lagtard agro-maniac that somehow 'gets our goat' and makes us do stupid stuff like challenging hands we know we shouldn't. My personal #1 leak is thinking I have to be the table cop. Goes to that ongoing battle with the FUYAGS syndrome.

WiZZiM · Aug 2, 2010

dj11 said:
The only time I generally show is when in a walked bb, and I have an awful hand.

Other than that I generally never show, and even avoid looking (impossible online, but I try) when others do.

Long ago when I actually did do well at MTT's and SnG's my philosophy was much more survival oriented, and less big hand/good odds oriented. I think I need to get back to the survival mode of thought.

We all need to learn to spot, and deal with the lagtard agro-maniac that somehow 'gets our goat' and makes us do stupid stuff like challenging hands we know we shouldn't. My personal #1 leak is thinking I have to be the table cop.

oh gawd, this is such a bad move, sorry. wont showing someone you had rags make them more inclined to steal from you?

pat3392 · Aug 2, 2010

dj11 said:
The only time I generally show is when in a walked bb, and I have an awful hand.

Other than that I generally never show, and even avoid looking (impossible online, but I try) when others do.

Long ago when I actually did do well at MTT's and SnG's my philosophy was much more survival oriented, and less big hand/good odds oriented. I think I need to get back to the survival mode of thought.

We all need to learn to spot, and deal with the lagtard agro-maniac that somehow 'gets our goat' and makes us do stupid stuff like challenging hands we know we shouldn't. My personal #1 leak is thinking I have to be the table cop. Goes to that ongoing battle with the FUYAGS syndrome.

I was taking you seriously and thinking that you were clueless, till that last line

Debi · Aug 2, 2010

dj11 said:
The only time I generally show is when in a walked bb, and I have an awful hand.

WiZZiM said:
oh gawd, this is such a bad move, sorry. wont showing someone you had rags make them more inclined to steal from you?

Yea - that kind of show is really bad in a sng.

dj11 · Aug 2, 2010

U must have missed the WALKED BB part.....

And FWIW, I seldom do it. I always have muck hands checked and only uncheck it occasionally for CC games (being the social events they are...

), so don't be thinking I do it regularly. Maybe1/300 hands......

If I do have it unchecked in CC games I might show a worthy opp what I won with, but seldom (1/1000 hands maybe!) will I show a steal. In non CC games I muck everything.

My point was that showing hands IMHO is generally not a good idea at all, ever. And a good example was in the Stars game yesterday (Sunday buy-in). I have watched SP show his steals in the past, and yesterday caught him with his pants down because I knew in that spot he was somewhere around 60% of the time stealing. Now take Buck for example. Buck never shows, and of all the players here I read Buck the worst. I never have a good idea about what he holds. He very well may have been stealing from me for years, but because he never shows unless he losses to my monsters, I really have little clue. He does always showdown something worthwhile tho. Buck is one extreme, and SP is the other extreme. Buck doesn't show, SP does.

Debi · Aug 2, 2010

Oh - do you mean everyone folded to you? lingo shmingo lol

Poker Orifice · Aug 2, 2010

dj11 said:
My personal #1 leak is thinking I have to be the table cop. .

Okay. This ^ explains alot.

fletchdad · Aug 2, 2010

Its funny that you start this thread with a showing suggestion. I used to show, and a while ago asked whether precisely this situation (when u r strong and push and win) would not merrit a show, and I was told by just about everyone to NEVER SHOW. But I agree with you that it can have +ev effect later when u shove with semi bluff or worse hands. I thought it must be me being silly to do this, and have not been doing it at all since I was told by so many not to. But after reading this, I think I will replace this in my tool box (only strong hands and only very occasional).

BTW, How do you show cards after everyone folds to your bet/push on FT?

akcash · Aug 2, 2010

yea i've always felt like this was a good play. never officially looked into it.

dj11 · Aug 5, 2010

Bump with a fresh thought.

Later in a sng, but still a few from the bubble, I will tend to increase my PFR. Many will often drop from 3x to 2.5 x if an isolation opportunity arises, but I will tend to increase to 4x or 5x making sure opp understands I am serious and would just as soon he not contend for that particular pot, or if he does he could easily pay dearly for it.

So far it seems to be a +EV move in general, but I have only been doing this for 3 months or so and the results are still unproven.

Pokertron3000 · Aug 5, 2010

Ok a couple of thoughts and first of all its pretty terrible to show your bad hands is therr any situation where its ok even good too? Say your chip leader and have been relentless on the bubble when you may get a player to make a move against you when your stack is large enough to flip with a good hand?

Also have you ever noticed that if your the aggresive bettor on a table people will tend to make their bets match your pre-flop bets how do we exploit this?

Also just to point out a leak of mine in turbos, my game can get me up there in the chips but sometimes I get card dead and cannot pull the trigger on raisers which hurts when the short stack on the bubble doubles up and then comes back. This is 18 man games so sometimes we are at 400 chips with a fullish final table.

pat3392 · Aug 6, 2010

dj11 said:
Bump with a fresh thought.

Later in a sng, but still a few from the bubble, I will tend to increase my PFR. Many will often drop from 3x to 2.5 x if an isolation opportunity arises, but I will tend to increase to 4x or 5x making sure opp understands I am serious and would just as soon he not contend for that particular pot, or if he does he could easily pay dearly for it.

So far it seems to be a +EV move in general, but I have only been doing this for 3 months or so and the results are still unproven.

So basically instead of raising an amount that you can fold if shoved on you commit yourself and give yourself plenty of spots to be out played on the flop

pat3392 · Aug 6, 2010

Mr McCluskey said:
Ok a couple of thoughts and first of all its pretty terrible to show your bad hands is therr any situation where its ok even good too? Say your chip leader and have been relentless on the bubble when you may get a player to make a move against you when your stack is large enough to flip with a good hand?

Also have you ever noticed that if your the aggresive bettor on a table people will tend to make their bets match your pre-flop bets how do we exploit this?

Also just to point out a leak of mine in turbos, my game can get me up there in the chips but sometimes I get card dead and cannot pull the trigger on raisers which hurts when the short stack on the bubble doubles up and then comes back. This is 18 man games so sometimes we are at 400 chips with a fullish final table.

I usually play very aggressive HH; by doing this my opponents have 2 options, play back with marginal holdings or blind of. Because of this many weakish players are prone to tilt and showing a bluff is sometimes to set them of. I think one must know how the shown hand will effect how their opponents will respond and if you are multi-tabling, it is probably a bad idea. Maybe if you plan on playing real tight showing the bluff may be good; I think good players will see straight through it but the bad ones *shrug* they may not

"Also have you ever noticed that if your the aggresive bettor on a table people will tend to make their bets match your pre-flop bets how do we exploit this?"

Umm are you talking pre-flop or post? Aggressive players that steal a lot like to make their raises as small as possible so that when you do try to play back it will be cheap for them. I'm trying to think of a way to exploit it but it is dependent on way too many variables i.e image stake size bubble presence cards

dj11 · Aug 6, 2010

pat3392 said:
So basically instead of raising an amount that you can fold if shoved on you commit yourself and give yourself plenty of spots to be out played on the flop

Forgot to add that I would feel comfortable with my stack at that point. What I don't want is limpers, or light callers. I want them to believe I have the goods. Since few (I think) would think I'm a bluffer when I have chips, I find more respect doing this than if I playt more standards size raising. I understand the theory of dropping the raise from 3x/4x to 2.5x late in the game, but find it is to easy to defend against. If I can put just a wee bit more pressure on my villains, it seems to pay off.

Me short stacked is a whole different proposition. But my bet wouldn't be just bigger, it would be the 'shove' and this is where I could bluff easily. At least until I was super short stacked, but that's desperation time and there is no theory in the world that covers that well.

Random SNG Thoughts/Strategy.

WiZZiM

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Tangerine 53

Rock Star

WiZZiM

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buzzmania

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bullishwwd

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OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle

WiZZiM

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WiZZiM

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Rldetheflop

Head Ranger

pat3392

Visionary

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Head Ranger

dj11

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WiZZiM

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pat3392

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Debi

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dj11

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Debi

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Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted

fletchdad

Jammin................

akcash

Rock Star

dj11

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Pokertron3000

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dj11

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