Raising on players allin on the bubble

A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
Ok I guess I am missing something in poker strategy and curious what many peoples thoughts are on this:

Im in a x player sng or tourney down to the bubble. Short stack goes all in with insignificant amount of chips. Big stack overbets slightly, second big (me) calls we each have more than 30bbs so no big deal. Flop comes and I hit a middle pair. BB bets I fold. Turns out the aggressor has nothing and loses to the short stack. Since he bet and lost main pot he gets under 100 chips from the overflow pot.

My thinking is WTF is going on and why do that? If I could have won on a draw we are both in the money so why push with crap? Even if he is holding a high pair with a flush draw and straight draw on the board IMO is a bullshit play.

I used to be convinced that I was right to think this is a stupid play but now I see it so much I am just curious is it me that does not get it? and is there is a method here I am missing?
 
Drowy

Drowy

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Total posts
95
Chips
0
The big stack should have shoved to isolate others to go heads up with the shortstacks rather than 3-way, you called which isnt good cause you dont know what the shortstack had.

The big stack raised him all in cause their range is usually wide
 
Xcoder

Xcoder

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Total posts
397
Awards
2
Chips
0
Being agressive on the bubble is a great way to build your chip stack. It's a dangerous play but can be very rewarding.
 
Andrew Popov

Andrew Popov

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Total posts
2,845
Awards
4
Chips
132
Even a weak hand preflop has no chances to get a strong combination. A large stack can afford to play very widely and get the nuts not too much losing in case of no luck. This is the advantage of loose play as a whole. But a short stack usually can not afford to play widely each hand.
 
akmost

akmost

Rising Star
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Total posts
1,979
Awards
2
GR
Chips
145
We know nothing about everybody's hands but I will try to express my point of view. The chip leader made this ''slight overbet'' in order to go heads up with the short stack which is ok.

He cbets the flop with air which makes no-sense for me as well.You could go check check all the way down,so you would had better chances to eliminate the short stacked player

My question is why did you call after the chip leader's raise?[since you told us nothing about your hand I believe you had a mediocre one, right?]. The last thing you want when is the bubble time is a play for a big pot with the big stack!You should attack the smaller stacks. :)
 
Y

Yura Nabok

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Total posts
80
Chips
0
The big stack raised him all in cause their range is usually wide))
 
A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
We know nothing about everybody's hands but I will try to express my point of view. The chip leader made this ''slight overbet'' in order to go heads up with the short stack which is ok.

He cbets the flop with air which makes no-sense for me as well.You could go check check all the way down,so you would had better chances to eliminate the short stacked player

My question is why did you call after the chip leader's raise?[since you told us nothing about your hand I believe you had a mediocre one, right?]. The last thing you want when is the bubble time is a play for a big pot with the big stack!You should attack the smaller stacks. :)

You are correct I had a mediocre hand - my thinking which I realize is flawed after reading many responses here is that knock the guy out @ any cost. I see now I would have been better off folding because all I did was increase the shortstack chipstack - so consequently the person I was calling the dumb ass was simply in the mirror looking back at me (aka me).

I really appreciate this response as it clarifies that I was not using good poker logic here at all and was simply deluding myself -

Thank you!!!
 
A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
Everyone that responded so far, thank you!!! These responses clarify why I was mistaken in my outlook and I appreciate your responses. Kind of a wake up call for me - looking forward to plugging this leak in my game - when it works its rewarding but that is not the norm !!!!
 
vic88888

vic88888

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Total posts
1,003
Awards
1
Chips
0
Either that or there was a business deal made between them, lol. I dunno, preservation of sort. Conspiracy theories. Personally I think holding off a bit until a great hand comes increases the money chances. It is an inner struggle between patience and temptation.
 
BriceNice

BriceNice

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Total posts
456
Chips
0
I think everybody might be missing the point here. What if the big stack was just a donk! But seriously, if hes pushing you out of the pot with garbage, I can only assume hes not a thinking player. With the icm implications its a no brainer letting you stay in the pot would be beneficial to ALL rather than trying to win outright himself. I understand bubble play and all that, but if im the big stack and I have a hand that I know probably cant beat the guy whos all in, im at least willing to let 3 go to the flop, so that way somebody can get the short stack out. Now if ive got somthing like J9 86 suited etc. I get it protect your equity, but if its 84 off, I just see no point in pushing out another hand when I dont have much of a chance at showdown.
 
1putnik

1putnik

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Total posts
183
Chips
0
Perhaps you showed yourself as a carefull player at the table, and BB just tried to push you out without this hand to increase the chances of taking the pot, remaining one on one with a short-stack, which he did. If you called him on the flop, on turn most likely he would make a check and your bet after it would cause him to fold. But such actions of opponents are extremely rare and usually do not lead to good, with such a game you lose much more. I think your fold, still was appropriate, takin in mind his overbet, it's still better not to go for such risks.
 
P

ph_il

...
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Total posts
10,128
Awards
1
Chips
25
Have you ever made a silly mistake playing poker?
 
akmost

akmost

Rising Star
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Total posts
1,979
Awards
2
GR
Chips
145
So glad I helped. Only through discussion we gonna get better and improve our skill for this wonderful cards game. I believe this forum will help whoever truly wants to become a hard opponent at the tables! ! !
 
C

Comix

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Total posts
32
Chips
0
Ok I guess I am missing something in poker strategy and curious what many peoples thoughts are on this:

Im in a x player sng or tourney down to the bubble. Short stack goes all in with insignificant amount of chips. Big stack overbets slightly, second big (me) calls we each have more than 30bbs so no big deal. Flop comes and I hit a middle pair. BB bets I fold. Turns out the aggressor has nothing and loses to the short stack. Since he bet and lost main pot he gets under 100 chips from the overflow pot.

My thinking is WTF is going on and why do that? If I could have won on a draw we are both in the money so why push with crap? Even if he is holding a high pair with a flush draw and straight draw on the board IMO is a bullshit play.

I used to be convinced that I was right to think this is a stupid play but now I see it so much I am just curious is it me that does not get it? and is there is a method here I am missing?

That is a dumbass play. It is done by people who don't have a lot of experience in those situations. I tend to get in only if I have a good hand and check down unless it becomes a great hand....the last thing you want to do is give a short stack life.
 
S

skaterick

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jul 2, 2015
Total posts
1,769
Awards
10
US
Chips
123
This question cant be answered without much more info . We need to know the tourney format ( if SNG how many paid and how many left ? ), stack sizes ( are other players short too ? ), actual BB amount of the big stack's raise , payoff levels , and table positions , etc etc . In many situations letting the short stack triple up is a catastrophe , and I think this case was probably just that .Savvy tournament players generally check down in this spot . In a SNG however, getting to 1st is your goal when you are the chip leader . Strangely, by letting the short stack live you can continue to punish everyone trying to survive to the bubble ! They don't dare challenge your stack without true premium starters , and you can continue to rob them blind . This move may if fact increase your EV more than eliminating the shorty ! There is a fine , but difficult , analysis of just this situation in 'The Mathematics of Poker ' by Chen and Ackerman .
 
Last edited:
J

joshua360

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Total posts
49
Chips
0
bubble

My thoughts on this are check down, check down, check down. Doesn't matter how the table has been playing, the sooner the bubble is out the sooner you can get to playing for the win. The only downside to more then one person going up against the bubble is that if the bubble wins with multiple players calling then the bubble may no longer be the bubble.
 
K

koskesh

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 11, 2017
Total posts
428
Chips
0
A great benefit of the big stack aggression in the bubble is that it makes it very hard to judge their hand strength. They will get a caught in a bluff here and there but even when they have a good hand, most people call them thinking it's another bluff.
 
NCDaddy

NCDaddy

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Total posts
709
Chips
0
I think everybody might be missing the point here. What if the big stack was just a donk! But seriously, if hes pushing you out of the pot with garbage, I can only assume hes not a thinking player. With the icm implications its a no brainer letting you stay in the pot would be beneficial to ALL rather than trying to win outright himself. I understand bubble play and all that, but if im the big stack and I have a hand that I know probably cant beat the guy whos all in, im at least willing to let 3 go to the flop, so that way somebody can get the short stack out. Now if ive got somthing like J9 86 suited etc. I get it protect your equity, but if its 84 off, I just see no point in pushing out another hand when I dont have much of a chance at showdown.

Totally agree here and with Joshua360.

If short stack player has an "insignificant" amount of chips....in other words, the pot between the 3 of you is just basically blinds.....check it down and get him out and play on.
 
Navin Sarabjeet

Navin Sarabjeet

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Total posts
2,541
Awards
22
SR
Chips
235
Ok I guess I am missing something in poker strategy and curious what many peoples thoughts are on this:

Im in a x player sng or tourney down to the bubble. Short stack goes all in with insignificant amount of chips. Big stack overbets slightly, second big (me) calls we each have more than 30bbs so no big deal. Flop comes and I hit a middle pair. BB bets I fold. Turns out the aggressor has nothing and loses to the short stack. Since he bet and lost main pot he gets under 100 chips from the overflow pot.

My thinking is WTF is going on and why do that? If I could have won on a draw we are both in the money so why push with crap? Even if he is holding a high pair with a flush draw and straight draw on the board IMO is a bullshit play.

I used to be convinced that I was right to think this is a stupid play but now I see it so much I am just curious is it me that does not get it? and is there is a method here I am missing?

What my personal experience is, is that they make a slight re-raise to let the others THINK that they have a reasonable holding so that they can play heads-up or whenever another player enters they already have a side pot created and can easily bluff them away on the flop, because they know that the short stack will push with whatever two random and reasonable cards they have. So better heads-up to lose a bit or knock-out the shorty than keep on checking with the third player in the pot whereas the third player can make a stronger hand on the river or even bluff HIM out on the river;)

But again this is my own experience whilst others may have a different opinion on this:cool:

So i hope that this has been of some help:)
 
jimmy andres

jimmy andres

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Total posts
243
Chips
0
Hello, what many have read in books or web paguinas tells us that in the bubble before entering the prizes and in the bubble of the prizes to intimidate other players push all your chips sometimes creating a situation you or me giving For result that if you have a short stack you are forced to go all in or the blinds will take you out.
 
Masi2197

Masi2197

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Total posts
340
Chips
0
If the player with the best hand makes a high bet, some of the other players would have rerouted and thus increase the winning factor
 
Luan

Luan

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Total posts
1,129
Awards
3
BR
Chips
39
usually in this situation of bubble I have a media of 30bb missing 1 or 2 to blow the bubble I become more conservative than aggressive to try to steal.
 
elizeuof

elizeuof

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 26, 2015
Total posts
656
Awards
1
Chips
1
This happens to me sometimes too.

It's a part of poker games...

there's a lot of things that we have to observe before a conclusion: Buy-in, if the villain are loose or tight, how he was play another hands, what's your image in the table, etc

Usually I go all in with a wide range when i'm short stack, and i try to save some chips when middle, but with a big stack I will prefer play some hands only against one player.
 
froggeedogs

froggeedogs

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Total posts
291
Chips
0
personally, if the small stack goes all-in and someone re-raises, I get out of the way. Unless I have a really strong hand. then I would 4-bet to get rid of the aggressor. always nice to check it around to take someone out but you have to keep an eye on your own position as well.
 
O

oldolm

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Total posts
191
Chips
0
bubble is the best time to be aggresive when your at big stack, just dont play tight when ure deep in bubble and when bubble reach is only min cash. play aggresive and build stack and u beat opponents easily in late position with stack
 
Top