Quiz - Earn $10

Here is a riddle from a game I played earlier.
I've been seeing poker through very differnt eyes lately, and working on strategies. Here's one that when I saw what was happening I had to take advantage of the situation.

Some background information, this was on the bubble for cash and final table, 2 tables left with 5 players each.

Look at my stack compared to everyone else. The average stack at the time was 27000.

Here are 2 hands where I softplayed. In 1, I folded from the SB with a pair against a crippled stack in the BB and the other I just called and checked to the river with a monster.

I did this deliberately. My logic for this will be explained later. There is a very logical explanation for why I did this. Many people will probably disagree with my reasons, however they are very valid.

There was a real strategic advantage as to why I did this and I would like to see if anyone can figure it out.

Why ?

Why did I do this when I could have knocked out both players and collected $4 in bounties in the process.

The person with the best answer will receive $10 in their full tilt account.

Hint: It has nothing to do with chip dumping or trying to help a friend get to the final table. I do not know these people, have never met them and never will.

Also in the hand involving the kings I am aware there was a possible straight looming, that had nothng to do with why I didn't bet out.

Here are the hand histories.


full tilt poker Game : $10 + $1 KO Sit & Go Table 10 - 600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em
Seat 2: postman7 (3,944)
Seat 3: cmtol (11,340)
Seat 4: spike800 (13,025)
Seat 5: Neverborn (8,684)
Seat 9: RiverBoatRat (53,412)
postman7 antes 150
cmtol antes 150
spike800 antes 150
Neverborn antes 150
RiverBoatRat antes 150
RiverBoatRat posts the small blind of 600
postman7 posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RiverBoatRat [6c] [6s]
cmtol folds
spike800 folds
Neverborn folds
RiverBoatRat folds
Uncalled bet of 600 returned to postman7
postman7 mucks
postman7 wins the pot (1,950)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1,950 | Rake 0
Seat 2: postman7 (big blind) collected (1,950), mucked
Seat 3: cmtol folded before the Flop
Seat 4: spike800 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Neverborn (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: RiverBoatRat (small blind) folded before the Flop


Full Tilt poker game $10 + $1 KO Sit & Go Table 10 - 600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em
Seat 2: postman7 (4,094)
Seat 3: cmtol (11,490)
Seat 4: spike800 (10,625)
Seat 5: Neverborn (9,434)
Seat 9: RiverBoatRat (54,762)
postman7 antes 150
cmtol antes 150
spike800 antes 150
Neverborn antes 150
RiverBoatRat antes 150
Neverborn posts the small blind of 600
RiverBoatRat posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RiverBoatRat [Kc] [Ks]
postman7 folds
cmtol folds
spike800 raises to 3,600
Neverborn folds
RiverBoatRat calls 2,400
*** FLOP *** [8h] [9s] [Qh]
RiverBoatRat checks
spike800 checks
*** TURN *** [8h] [9s] [Qh] [7s]
RiverBoatRat checks
spike800 checks
*** RIVER *** [8h] [9s] [Qh] [7s] [9d]
RiverBoatRat has 15 seconds left to act
RiverBoatRat checks
spike800 checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
spike800 shows [Ad] [8d] two pair, Nines and Eights
RiverBoatRat shows [Kc] [Ks] two pair, Kings and Nines
RiverBoatRat wins the pot (8,550) with two pair, Queens and Nines
The blinds are now 800/1,600 with an ante of 200
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,550 | Rake 0
Board: [8h] [9s] [Qh] [7s] [9d]
Seat 2: postman7 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: cmtol folded before the Flop
Seat 4: spike800 (button) showed [Ad] [8d] and lost with two pair, Nines and Eights
Seat 5: Neverborn (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: RiverBoatRat (big blind) showed [Kc] [Ks] and won (8,550) with two pair, Kings and Nines

You wanted to keep the shortstack in so you could keep them all low, wear them down even lower, while they tried to ladder up.

As an added bonus people would respect your checkdowns :icon_tong

I'll let this run till the end of the weekend.

I will not comment on anyone's answers but will only answer relevant questions to the situation.

Here is some of the logic that I can see.
1. I'm assuming you are the chip leader or in second or so.....
2. It's not your duty to take out the short stack.
3. If you did call, chances are the shorstack could have shoved.
4. You are about to be at the final table, and half of it just saw that you called a raise, checked kings preflop all the way to the river with a promising board. That ensures they will think about trying to put a move on you never knowing what you have....huge advantage at the final table.....
5. That being said from 4, people will be less likely to shove against hands you just called in, almost guaranteeing a flop will be seen which you can make better decisions from there which helps you finish higher in the tourney.....

Well i was trying to think of a few reasons why,,,,,,one is alot of ppl like to push on the button to steal blinds,and to force bb to go all in,but I don't think you are doing that.So my next thought is,you were trying to see if one of the smaller ppl would push for the pot when you slow played it,so you could call them,and put them out.That doesn't fit much either,so then i was thinking you might want to sit back and let them take eachother out,since you were pretty good lead on stack that they might start going nuts,but since you guys were almost bubble,I Don't know,,,,,,,might need to come back on this lol,,dang i railed you alot lately,,and never picked it up You meany lol hiding tricks hehehe....tc and let me think on this,i might be close though

other response....you are a superuser and you saw that the bb had pocket qq and up......I think this is more logical than the post above

sassy_sue299 said:

Well i was trying to think of a few reasons why,,,,,,one is alot of ppl like to push on the button to steal blinds,and to force bb to go all in,but I don't think you are doing that.So my next thought is,you were trying to see if one of the smaller ppl would push for the pot when you slow played it,so you could call them,and put them out.That doesn't fit much either,so then i was thinking you might want to sit back and let them take eachother out,since you were pretty good lead on stack that they might start going nuts,but since you guys were almost bubble,I Don't know,,,,,,,might need to come back on this lol,,dang i railed you alot lately,,and never picked it up You meany lol hiding tricks hehehe....tc and let me think on this,i might be close though

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When were you railing? sorry if I didnt notice, if it was earlier, I was playing an sng while writing this post and going through my hand histories to find it.

dcor said:

other response....you are a superuser and you saw that the bb had pocket qq and up......I think this is more logical than the post above

Click to expand...

bust


lol, good logic, but I promise you I'm not potripper

omg you were in like 4 or 5 sit and goes.....all 10 +1......lol about 2 hours agoi was on ,,might even been three hours ago...then i started railing anther friend on ps knew you were busy,,and i had to cook super so couldn't stay to grab your attention

sassy_sue299 said:

omg you were in like 4 or 5 sit and goes.....all 10 +1......lol about 2 hours agoi was on ,,might even been three hours ago...then i started railing anther friend on ps knew you were busy,,and i had to cook super so couldn't stay to grab your attention

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oh that was much earlier, yeah sorry had my hands full

well all gl on the quiz :0 I am taking a bit of a break just got done railing for a few hours :0 and need a break...........will come back later to see who won glgl and tc

you wanted to keep the short stack players at your table, so they wont represent much of a threat to you, because if you knock some of them out, a big stack player can be moved to your table and it will change the pace of the game, and you wanted to keep twice the average stack alive after the bubble

The reason why you played kings that way is is explained above but the benefit of doing that is to establish an unpredictable image for the other players and you will be tough to read, extra aggression will probably bring you some money later on if you start raising or re-raising with weaker hands, they will give you respect..

Hmmm,well i would say that,maybe your reasoning for the checkdown would be that you have the chips to burn down the clock so to say.
meaning there is the bubble and the slower the play the more of a chance for the bubble to break.
as far as folding to the crippled bb,why would you want to risk doubling them up at this point in the tourney,sure you coulda knocked them out but you coulda doubled them as well.

Oh I missed it was two tables of five. I don't reads good.

you emphasized your stack size compared to the other players at your table, and mentioned the average stack size, so i calculated the average stack size at your table: $18081. this is much less than the overall average stack size of $27000. the thing that both of the hands have in common is that you had the opportunity to knock out both players, but you let it slide. clearly, you didn't want to knock anyone out because then you would have to play with the bigstacks.

Mike Sexton told a story once about (somebody? I forget who) who was on the bubble of a major tournament and stole blind after blind. Everyone was folding to him and he went from a relatively short stack to being tournament leader by stealing every hand.
Then someone shoved. He looked down and saw K/K, and called.
He told Mike that calling with K/K was a terrible mistake. He should have kept the other guy alive so he could keep stealing chips in safety.

His K/K held, the bubble burst, and then everyone started playing hands again.

I'd say that you were in a similar situation. You were accumulating a lot of chips risk free because you were on the bubble. Busting out anybody would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs because then people would start playing back at you because they were guaranteed a payout.

So far I have read 3 replies that are in the right direction.

P.S. it has nothing to do with table image.

I shared the answer with one of the forum "elders" and while I made mistakes in what I did, the strategy was not far wrong and my thinking was right.

you wanted to maintain POSITION so that by not busting out anyone at your table (they would all have incentive to make the final table and might be less likely to shove) your table would be final table --> the bigger stacks from the other table would then be on your right. This is a huge advantage to have at the final table and this +EV situation (more money goes to the top spots) would far outweigh the $1 bonuses you'd get by collecting the bounties. You'd then have a tremendous edge with position over the final table big stacks AND you'd still be able to steal from the smaller stacks on your left since they'd be trying to move up the pay ladder

SHIP IT

I was thinking towards skold's answer. So if he gets it right, just ship half of it to me.

And, if he's right, that's brilliant and something that wouldn't have crossed my mind in that situation.

you play slow..they push when they steal blinds you catch them..it could be as simple as that..but giving out 10 it must be a bit more complicated then i think..as the chip leader your job is to stay ahead of the pack..not to knock people out..when you have a high stack and low stack at the table..it evens out so that the tables with the chip stacks are even..if you knock them out to balance the table they send in more players with bigger stacks just a thought..but i dont know for sure haha

In the first hand I can see folding there, It would have been a coin flip at best with the short stack and who wants to double him up at that point.

With the second hand you took some extra time at the river.were you thinking about a value bet ??? Showing your KK makes no sense to me. If it was to play a little head game with the other players its only half of the remaining players so it makes no sense and is beyond my comprehension . The blinds are about to hit the small stack again so your gonna be at the final table soon anyway. I think you missed a bet on the river.

I'm curious now........whats the motivation ?

skoldpadda said:

you wanted to maintain POSITION so that by not busting out anyone at your table (they would all have incentive to make the final table and might be less likely to shove) your table would be final table --> the bigger stacks from the other table would then be on your right. This is a huge advantage to have at the final table and this +EV situation (more money goes to the top spots) would far outweigh the $1 bonuses you'd get by collecting the bounties. You'd then have a tremendous edge with position over the final table big stacks AND you'd still be able to steal from the smaller stacks on your left since they'd be trying to move up the pay ladder

SHIP IT

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Damn, I was too late!!! I agree with skoldpadda, nice answer man!!!

skoldpadda said:

you wanted to maintain POSITION so that by not busting out anyone at your table (they would all have incentive to make the final table and might be less likely to shove) your table would be final table --> the bigger stacks from the other table would then be on your right. This is a huge advantage to have at the final table and this +EV situation (more money goes to the top spots) would far outweigh the $1 bonuses you'd get by collecting the bounties. You'd then have a tremendous edge with position over the final table big stacks AND you'd still be able to steal from the smaller stacks on your left since they'd be trying to move up the pay ladder

SHIP IT

Click to expand...

WOW I almost shipped you 10 bucks for that answer.
But how can you be sure the big stacks will be on your right ?? Isn't the seating random at the final table??

The only thing i can see is that you, as the chip leader, wanted to build a bigger chip lead. The easiest way to do that is to prolong the two tables. You're not in any danger of being broke, so you let them keep going, so you can get more chips from the medium stacks. Besides that, if you're able to bust out one of the bigger stacks at the table, the final table is that much weaker. If postman goes out now, then you still have a person with a stack of 13,000. But if you bust out a bigger stack, then now you have a 3000 chip stack at the final table. Meaning you are more likely to finish higher in the money.

dweezel said:

Isn't the seating random at the final table??

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No, not if he stays at his current table. If you are shipped to the other table, then you are assigned a random open seat there.