Is QTs Flush generally a shoving hand?

I must admit that I hadn't seen his nutflush coming at all. I thought he might have 2 pair or a straight. Would you aim for an all-in generally?

I was quite early in the tourney probably arounnd 20-ish hand, but I thought this was a good spot to double up. I wonder was I too aggressive?

PartyGaming - 500/1000 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BTN: 111,536 (111.5 bb)
Hero (SB): 110,999 (111 bb)
BB: 104,690 (104.7 bb)
UTG: 92,375 (92.4 bb)
CO: 88,400 (88.4 bb)

5 players post ante of 125, Hero posts SB 500, BB posts 1,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 2,125) Hero has
UTG calls 1,000, 2 folds, Hero calls 500, BB checks

Flop: (3,625, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets 1,812, Hero calls 1,812, BB calls 1,812

Turn: (9,061, 3 players)
Hero bets 4,000, fold, UTG calls 4,000

River: (17,061, 2 players)
Hero bets 12,795, UTG raises to 44,783, Hero raises to 104,062 and is all-in, UTG calls 40,655 and is all-in

Results: 187,937 pot (0 rake)
Final Board:

UTG shows : (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 57%, Flop 81%, Turn 86%)

Hero shows : (Flush, Queen High)
(Pre 43%, Flop 19%, Turn 14%)

Hero wins 0
UTG wins 187,937

I'm not a specialist here, but I have the impression:
- 10 year ago the answer would have been: call on the river (all-in is too agressive)

- now I read often: ignore the chance of two players having a flush, especially if villain needs K or A and go for it
Depending the tourney, I like more the old approach when regular or deep speed, but often take the all-in approach on turbo MTT.
(realise: I play freerolls only; love the FRC)

Whenever you have a good flush like Q or K high, you don't want a 4th or 5th Club coming out on the turn and river. Yes it's unlikely mathematically that they have the Ace. But when you have the Queen, there are now two flush cards they can have which beat you. This isn't as desirable as being King high and only having 1 card to worry about. So I'm betting big here on the flop to protect my monster (but vulnerable) hand. You got very unlucky here but think bigger bets for the future and charge them the maximum to 4/5 flush you. R

No

No, I don't think you did anything wrong there. Most of the time you have the winning hand. It is always unfortunate to lose to a bigger flush but sometimes it does happen.

I would say maybe too aggressive. His reraise on the river of almost 4 times your big bet would have signaled all of my warning lights. I would have taken the conservative route of just calling and save some chips should he have a bigger flush.

Ragequit said:

Whenever you have a good flush like Q or K high, you don't want a 4th or 5th Club coming out on the turn and river. Yes it's unlikely mathematically that they have the Ace. But when you have the Queen, there are now two flush cards they can have which beat you. This isn't as desirable as being King high and only having 1 card to worry about. So I'm betting big here on the flop to protect my monster (but vulnerable) hand. You got very unlucky here but think bigger bets for the future and charge them the maximum to 4/5 flush you. R

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I apologize if I'm misunderstanding your post, but we both got the Flush on the River. So I don't quite understand the "betting big on the flop" suggestion.

Shrops said:

No, I don't think you did anything wrong there. Most of the time you have the winning hand. It is always unfortunate to lose to a bigger flush but sometimes it does happen.

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Thanks. The guy concealed well the possible Ac preflop by just limping. But as I said, it was early to the game and perhaps I should have been more cautious. But Q high 2 card flush cuts it most of the time though. I must say limping A8s preflop UTG is soo unusual. I have never seen that before in over half of million hands

radartodd69 said:

I would say maybe too aggressive. His reraise on the river of almost 4 times your big bet would have signaled all of my warning lights. I would have taken the conservative route of just calling and save some chips should he have a bigger flush.

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I think calling would definitely be a good play for certain. I got greedy. I was hoping he had smaller Flush at best. He concealed his A8s well preflop. I think I'm gonna make myself a rule here that if it's early to the game and I haven't seen a few showdowns I will remain more conservative in certain spots. If I had 9 below flush I would have only called.

When you hit a flush there is less than a 3% chance that someone else has one too,( there is only a .2% chance in the first place of two flushes, subsequent calculations require assumptions and are not necessarily precise ); with a Q-high one the chance of you having the losing hand must be half-a-percent or less. I can't imagine playing scared enough to not happily get all-in there.

elflake said:

When you hit a flush there is less than a 3% chance that someone else has one too,( there is only a .2% chance in the first place of two flushes, subsequent calculations require assumptions and are not necessarily precise ); with a Q-high one the chance of you having the losing hand must be half-a-percent or less. I can't imagine playing scared enough to not happily get all-in there.

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Thanks.

Daithi said:

I apologize if I'm misunderstanding your post, but we both got the Flush on the River. So I don't quite understand the "betting big on the flop" suggestion.

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Yes I'm sorry I thought it was a 3 flush board which improved to 4 flush. That changes the situation of course.

My opinion is that you played absolutely right. The probability of a second flush with a card above Q is extremely low, it's just bad luck.

alexgrin said:

My opinion is that you played absolutely right. The probability of a second flush with a card above Q is extremely low, it's just bad luck.

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I thought too. However, after another look, I overlooked the 2 on the River. If indeed a Set was part of the range, he could have a Full House or Quads. I am starting to think that a call would be more optiumum than shove. I'm gonna look at combos in the next post so make sure..

I think the chance of being beaten by a higher
flush is no reason to worry here. Too unlikely....
I would fear a full house or quads on this board
a lot more when the second 2 hits the river.

I also don’t understand why you check the flop after which you have around 50% chances to make a flush and then just call. But after the turn ( which doesn’t help you at all ) you bet 4000 with just around 25% chance of hitting your monster.
Why not bet 4000 right after the flop to see who is still willing to play with that flop...

kraemer said:

I also don’t understand why you check the flop after which you have around 50% chances to make a flush and then just call. But after the turn ( which doesn’t help you at all ) you bet 4000 with just around 25% chance of hitting your monster.
Why not bet 4000 right after the flop to see who is still willing to play with that flop...

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I was trying to get a free card and get a feel of the hand. I don't have a very good experience inflating the pot from OOP. However, after calling the bet on the flop, I thought my draw would start becoming apparent so I wanted to conceal it by betting on that high Turn card with remote hopes taking it right there and then, and if the flush comes I am incresing my imply odds by concealing my flush.

Daithi said:

I was trying to get a free card and get a feel of the hand. I don't have a very good experience inflating the pot from OOP. However, after calling the bet on the flop, I thought my draw would start becoming apparent so I wanted to conceal it by betting on that high Turn card with remote hopes taking it right there and then, and if the flush comes I am incresing my imply odds by concealing my flush.

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Which I'd thought had worked when I was challenged on the River.

Those cards would play very carefully, I would not bet everything because you have to think about the possibilities QTs is a good hand but remember that A and K would be missing that are better than QT

Most people play their flushes aggressively...could have just called to still have chips left in case your beat
Sort of a cooler flush against nut flush .....

What hands you put your opponent on?

WHAT???? 100bb from the players ... You when all the chips in the center shoved, from which hands did they want to call? what is the bet on the turn? it could be relevant when betting on the flop ... and in general, not a clear line from both and played very badly ... 100BB !!!! This is called greed

Hard spot but man on limped pot and bet flat bet flat river lead club ur hand is basically face up as flush so u lead he reraises river what hands does he have worse then queen high flush call huge reshove in terms of bbs u gotta call his reraise but man I think the extra ship over the top is optimistic save 30bbs instead capping his range at hands that beat u don't be so greedy

These bad beats do happen in super turbo games. The ideal way is to bet huge so that chasing becomes costly but Ace high flush chasers mostly do not afraid with these huge bets because they love their Ace and they know their Ace is good enough to beat any pair if it hits by river. I know it is a wrong way but now a days, the play goes like this..

PuMa8818 said:

WHAT???? 100bb from the players ... You when all the chips in the center shoved, from which hands did they want to call? what is the bet on the turn? it could be relevant when betting on the flop ... and in general, not a clear line from both and played very badly ... 100BB !!!! This is called greed

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Uhm...what?

notahead said:

Hard spot but man on limped pot and bet flat bet flat river lead club ur hand is basically face up as flush so u lead he reraises river what hands does he have worse then queen high flush call huge reshove in terms of bbs u gotta call his reraise but man I think the extra ship over the top is optimistic save 30bbs instead capping his range at hands that beat u don't be so greedy

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As I said, hands like 2 pair, Straight. What actually worries me is the 2 on the River. With the excitement of the flush I missed it paired. For that alone I should have just called. I agree that a call was the better choice. I was blinded by doubling up.

Daithi said:

Uhm...what?

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apparently the translator was disappointed. Why did you bet on the turn if you did not make it on the flop? After the second bet he could throw it away. When did you receive a re-raise on the river, what kind of hands did you expect to see? In the paired board, many hands appeared that beat you. But nevertheless, as you yourself said, you were blinded by the doubling.

Early in the tournament everyone is trapping so I would have just called the River re-raise or even folded to save chips for a later hand.

I try to limit my bets / losses to 10% of my stack early unless I have the nuts. If it costs more just wait it's early and we have hours to play.