Q8s with 10BB

n3rv

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5 players left at the table, folds to you on the button.

Generally speaking, is this a shove or not?

Thanks in advance for any replies.
 
rock0001

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fold in my opinión. How many players cashed? Are you already itm? Only shove if both sb and bb play really tight however i will need info about their stacks and how many players cashed to give you a better opinión.
 
Poker Orifice

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I think it's fine to shove here. This would be close to the bottom of my shoving range in that spot.
 
2Pacavelli

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in my opinion , easy shove , the blinds will come back and eat you , and besides, if you get a call you are well protected with this Q8, you hardly will be dominated
 
IntenseHeat

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I don't know. You just made it past the blinds. Now you have seven or eight hands until the blinds come around again. I might wait for a better hand. Notice that I didn't say spot. This is actually a pretty good spot for a shove and Q-8 suited is not all that bad right here. I would personally prefer to have something stronger when going all-in. But then again, who wouldn't? The reality is though, that a better hand might not come around before the blinds do. If one does, you may well find yourself with a better hand, but not quite as good a spot for it. So with all things considered, Q-8 suited is not a horrible shove here.
 
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hbgmysite

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In the game of poker, the play largely centers on the act of betting, and as such, a protocol has been developed to speed up play, lessen confusion, and increase security while playing. Different games are played using different types of bets, and small variations in etiquette exist between cardrooms, but for the most part the following rules and protocol are observed by the majority of poker players.
 
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only_bridge

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If no antes, fold IMO.
With antes shove.

(its a jam hand in Bill Chen and Jerrod Ankenmans book, The Mathematics of Poker, blind on blind 10bb's deep, no antes)
 
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SnowedIn

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Shove. Unless there is a big pay jump to 4th and/or there are one or more serious shortstacks (<3bb).
 
n3rv

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Thanks guys. It still seems a bit undecided in a vacuum, so I will give more info in case anyone still wants to help, but I do feel a bit better about my shove the next day (even though I am still unsure).

I was only interested in playing for the win (or at least top 3), didn't care much about small cashing. >100 players had cashed already. I was on the bubble of the final table (10th). SB was loose with a similar stack size and had seen me make loose plays before. I had a much tighter table image earlier but the blinds and antes were going up quickly and forcing me into some plays (all mathematically correct though).

Anyway, SB ended up calling me with ATs, same suit, but his calling range had at least QJs in it based on earlier play. BB had about twice as many chips, had a tighter image than both of us, and folded as expected.

I know the mathematical books say Q8s is an easy shove with antes, and basically the only reason I questioned this was because the result didn't go my way. However, it still seemed like it could be a -EV shove to me in this sort of situation.

Maybe I am thinking about it incorrectly because I don't remember how many times this kind of shove has worked out, but honestly most MTTs I have won have been from waiting and picking up better hands in poorer spots (obviously you still need to get lucky either way and it is just a matter of picking whatever poison you prefer).

At the very least I think this thread will make me think twice about how tight the opponents in the blinds are in the future. I don't expect anyone to fold ATs to my shove, so I was going out of this one even if SB was a tighter player, but given his calling range was a lot wider than that, I think a fold could also be better here long term, even just in terms of going for the win and not caring about 9th.

Basically it just sucks to go out with Q8s wondering if it was the right play or not. However, I am probably being too results oriented and maybe I will see things differently again if I ever blind out in the future. :laugh:
 
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Flayst

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I agree that you could be letting the results skew your opinion of the decision you made at the table. In reality, folding and shoving were both correct depending on your judgment of the SB and BB. SB being loose could have been a point on either side of the argument really. Sometimes I like to min-raise in this situation, given your 10BB stack size a min-raise will definitely look like you want them to play, and in late tournament can induce a fold sometimes more easily than a shove. This move could very easily leave you with 8BB though, as you have to fold to a re-raise, but it saves you your tournament life for another shove chance which would then have to come within the next orbit.
 
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rrph3rtbkr

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i used to wonder always what should be the ranges in final table play ,when ur so close to pay, this will definately help me in future play ,and have to read more to improve my skills ... thanks guyz.. can u guyz plz provide me some link of any good mathematics poker book pdf link if anyone here have
 
12551255

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If you have a read that the blinds are tight, generally I'm shoving.
 
IntenseHeat

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Oh, five players left. In that case, disregard everything I said about waiting and just shove right here.

That's what happens when I read a post and go eat a snack before coming back to answer.
 
Poker Orifice

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I know the mathematical books say Q8s is an easy shove with antes, and basically the only reason I questioned this was because the result didn't go my way. However, it still seemed like it could be a -EV shove to me in this sort of situation.

Maybe I am thinking about it incorrectly ake me think twice about how tight the opponents in the blinds are in the future. I don't expect anyone to fold ATs to my shove,

Basically it just sucks to go out with Q8s wondering if it was the right play or not. However, I am probably being too results oriented and maybe I will see things differently again if I ever blind out in the future. :laugh:


What about the other 90% of the time when the guy is folding? Are you going to post that HH here too? ;)
 
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Ambur

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+ante - shove, in general!

But you can consider asking yourselfe questions like:

What was the stack sizes rest of the active players?
Average stack compared your stack?
How many smaller stack's in given field and what is ante % compared of BB amount?
 
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I say shove. This is 5-handed, you are now assuming you're not going to pick up a top 20% hand before the blinds come around to you again. And Q8s is actually borderline strong with only 2 players to go through. On the other hand, it might actually be likely one of them will wake up with an ace? If the first and second-to-act players folded, they obviously didn't have an ace. The odds of no ace being dealt seems unlikely but I'm not sure.

Anyway. If someone calls you, you'll have at least 30% equity most of the time. Live cards. Got to take the spot.
 
Karozi615

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Very easy shove, ESPECIALLY if this is a final table. Our stack is slightly to big to be doing this, so as a result we might be able to get a less experienced player to fold hands like A5 and K9 when in reality its a snap.

The worst thing that can happen is we get called and double up.
 
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hffjd2000

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Just ask yourself if the blinds have much percentage to fold to your shove. I simply want that fold equity be in my favor.
 
VGShaa

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I agree, if there is an ante in your case you need to show. If not then you can not risks and wait more successful hand. + If your table for large stacks of more than 50 big blinds, then with a weak ace, they quietly made the call. 5 max you need to play aggressively, but if there is no big stacks behind, then you have a right to choose your hands.
 
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the button , even if risky , it is possible to make a min-raise or 3bb pre flop and see if someone folds and independent than hitting , shoving , making believe that you hit something strong or if the bord is too bad, fold and shove at the next opportunity
 
jedimindpicks

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What are our reads in the players in the blinds?
Are we the short stack?
How many bigs do sb and bb have?
is this FT?
Itm?
Likely a +chip EV shove but where ICM is concerned not exactly cut and dry.
for example if sb and bb both have big stacks and 2 other players are shorter than you it might be a fold at FT. Or even if sb has a short stack and bb is chip leader and you are on the bubble likely a fold also.
 
4soul

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i want to tell only one good thing...with -10bb and Q8s....is the best move to push in utg...ive seen a lot of times that good players do that..
 
BogdanStark

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In the ideal this is not bad cards. Two possible dro. Plus top pair with an average kicker. The amount of the blinds makes you think about all in.
 
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I would shove Q8s+ in this spot, waiting for a "better" hand will make your fold next to zero. Definitively an ICM push!
 
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