Is pushing here a mistake?

Karozi615

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Live MTT tournament, 8 players seated
200/400 blinds +50 ante
utg raises to 1000
5 players call
you look down at your cards in the big blind and see AK suited.
There is 6k in the pot. The table has been incredibly loose/passive. You are comfortable with 18k behind but still a shorter stack. Is it okay to just shove here or do you have to make it like 4k? Or do you call? Keep in mind there are 2 players at the table with stacks of 80k+ both to your left. You are the second smallest stack at the table
I would think to shove, and my only reservation is that you aren't even close to that "fringe zone" because you still have a ton of blinds. (40+)
I think a strong argument could be made for raising to 5k to try and isolate a player but what happens if you miss the flop? A c-bet would practically commit you. I think the fold equity you get preflop is higher, and you AREN'T getting called by AA or KK except for the person UTG, where there is a small chance that player has either one of those hands. Even if you are shown kings your drawing live.
So pushing here is the right play in the middle stages of a tourney where your a short stack at a loose passive table with 33% of your stack in the pot PREFLOP
OR raise to 5k, get one caller, spike an ACE on the flop check/shove or lead out and take it down or get called by A8 suited or A10 (that is the caliber of these players)
But the consideration has to be that you MISS some of the time, and that seems like a really gross spot, so I'm not so sure about raising. also consider that you could get more than one caller.
any opinions?
 
Karozi615

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shoving doesn't feel "optimal" but it feels +ev to me, if that makes any sense :/ This situation actually happened to me in a live setting, I'll explain my decision if I get some responses. (I think I played it the worst way possible)
 
steveiam

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AK suited in a 6 way pot is not great there has to be at least one hand that has you dominated so i wouldn't shove, But i would probably just call and see the flop. I don't have to risk my whole tournament at this point there will be better spots later to double up. We miss the flop most of the time.
 
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RamdeeBen

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AK suited in a 6 way pot is not great there has to be at least one hand that has you dominated so i wouldn't shove, But i would probably just call and see the flop. I don't have to risk my whole tournament at this point there will be better spots later to double up. We miss the flop most of the time.

This comment has to be a level surely?

lol; what hand exactly would have us dominated here when there are so many callers behind? Maybe UTG has AA/KK, so what? Just a cooler. Chances are obviously very slim given we have the nut blockers to those hands but the very worse case here in general is that they turn over QQ/JJ if they call our raise so we're flipping for a HUGE pot, to put us in a good spot to run deep in the tournament; hardly a bad spot to be in just a great +EV spot to be in and very unlucky we run into the top of his range. Again though these are worse case scenarios.

Calling pre flop here would be the absolute worse of play. If you would only call with the action in front of you, this is clearly a really terrible leak. Raising or shoving is clearly the best play here. The pot pre flop represents 35% of our stack. If we take it down even pre flop; this is a great result and we should be happy if they call. I mean, there are 5 callers, there's a TON of dead money. For a start, this could look like a squeeze play and we might get looked up much lighter and 2nd, we have AK a premium hand, this is like a dream spot to raise/get it in.

If you're not prepared to raise, then I've got absolutely no idea of what you're thinking when you think this is a bad spot to raise/shove. "Risking your tournament life" as a short stack and especially with a hand like AK is hardly bad and you won't find a better spot to double up, in this sort of spot until you let yourself nit it out blinding down to 4bb or whatever and finally pick up AA and everyone folds or at best you win a 8bb pot lol. We're like 40bb deep, what sort of hand do you really want to risk your tournament life on?
 
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MediaBLITZ

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Call? No - you go to the flop knowing nothing more than you did before - also you want to thin out the herd or you are no longer looking good to win versus the filed - even if you do hit (someone else could hold Ax and Ax hits destroying your TPTK)

Jam? No - you can find out what you need to continue without risking your whole stack - but not as bad as calling.

Raise? Yes

Sure you could miss the flop, but you would rather miss versus one player than 6.

Sure you could miss the flop - after all it's still a speculative hand, but you want to make those moves when your speculation percentage is high - understanding that your investment could encounter a natural disaster on the flop - same can be said of AA, but since it's the highest spec percentage hand you don't run into it a lot. Just today a guy on the button limped w KK and I am in BB with 23. Flop is J23. He thinks he's gold and I crush him at show down - no hand is immune from the flop, but you bet out when you are in position to be ahead.
 
Karozi615

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great so one person said CALL another said RAISE and another said SHOVE - and all of you made sense, still haven't found clarity
 
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Hemi06

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It's not a mistake at all. A mistake is when it's horribly wrong. There are other options, but shoving isn't a mistake at all.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I think the only mistakes here are calling or folding.

A raise for less than 1/3 of your stack is ok if you want to just stay alive and play cautiously and use your post flop skills. Just remember you're going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time and a cbet will be very expensive now...

I'm not a huge fan of preflop all in poker, but this is a spot where I'm happy to shove. Because either way I'm happy...if they all fold yay! If I get 1 caller and take a flip with a bunch of dead money...yay.

Usually in each tourney you have to take 1 or 2 big risks that pay off. This is as beautiful of a spot to do that as you could ask for.
 
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HooDooKoo

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This comment has to be a level surely?

lol; what hand exactly would have us dominated here when there are so many callers behind? Maybe UTG has AA/KK, so what? Just a cooler. Chances are obviously very slim given we have the nut blockers to those hands but the very worse case here in general is that they turn over QQ/JJ if they call our raise so we're flipping for a HUGE pot, to put us in a good spot to run deep in the tournament; hardly a bad spot to be in just a great +EV spot to be in and very unlucky we run into the top of his range. Again though these are worse case scenarios.

Calling pre flop here would be the absolute worse of play. If you would only call with the action in front of you, this is clearly a really terrible leak. Raising or shoving is clearly the best play here. The pot pre flop represents 35% of our stack. If we take it down even pre flop; this is a great result and we should be happy if they call. I mean, there are 5 callers, there's a TON of dead money. For a start, this could look like a squeeze play and we might get looked up much lighter and 2nd, we have AK a premium hand, this is like a dream spot to raise/get it in.

If you're not prepared to raise, then I've got absolutely no idea of what you're thinking when you think this is a bad spot to raise/shove. "Risking your tournament life" as a short stack and especially with a hand like AK is hardly bad and you won't find a better spot to double up, in this sort of spot until you let yourself nit it out blinding down to 4bb or whatever and finally pick up AA and everyone folds or at best you win a 8bb pot lol. We're like 40bb deep, what sort of hand do you really want to risk your tournament life on?

I completely agree with this assessment.

To the OP: If you play like you're afraid of losing all your chips, it's pretty unlikely that you'll ever win a tournament of any size. This is a great situation to shove, and it's definitely the optimal play here.

-HooDooKoo
 
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asolano22

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I think the only mistake is folding or calling. And calling would be worst than folding. But the fact is if your playing at a loose table, and you fold you give up your chance of making some easy money a high percentage of the time. If its a loose table that just called a player who may also be loose under the gun than a raise here properly (high) can potentially be the best option. Even risking half (or more) of your stack in a mtt to try and eliminate player would allow you good odds of winning. If you call you allow these loose players to limp in, and allowing to many players to see the flop when you have AK can be very detrimental to you.
 
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asolano22

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All in would not be bad either, because if they are loose players, they wouldve most likely already raised the first raise, if they had a monster. Other wise you may get lucky and get an AQ or lower to call you allowing you great odds. Sure you might lose, but consistently playing that way will win in the long run. Don't let a short term loss in a case like that make you think its the wrong move. People seem to get confused thinking an 80 percent chance of winning hand means 100 percents. It doesn't!
 
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crow27

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option 1A--raise to 6000 and jam if you hit flop. If no flop, check/fold.

option 1B--jam it preflop. You're only behind to 2 hands. Everything else is a flip. You're going to have to win a couple of big pots in flip situations to go deep, that's just the nature of trnys. Also, you're not as deep as you think. It will cost you 1000 every orbit of the table. That's 18 orbits if the blind didn't change, which we know doesn't happen. The next level should be 300/600 and 75 ante, right? At that level you're down to 12 orbits left if there are 8 players still in. So I believe raising preflop in this spot is only slightly better. I don't think you're wrong with either play given your stack size and the blind levels.
 
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twohaha

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If you think that you will get called by worse hands, just shove. Otherwise, just for a good old 6x raise, and reevaluate on the flop
 
steveiam

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great so one person said CALL another said RAISE and another said SHOVE - and all of you made sense, still haven't found clarity

The problem is that like any decision in poker there is always more than one option. My reason for not shoving is that you were 40bb deep and you don't need to flip for your tournament life in this situation like somebody else said.
 
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RamdeeBen

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great so one person said CALL another said RAISE and another said SHOVE - and all of you made sense, still haven't found clarity

Calling isn't an option. Well it is; just the very worse option.

When I said raise/shove - I mean raise big enough where it's going to put someone to a decision where they 4B shove or we take it heads up to the flop. I'd probably just shove though mainly because of all the dead money there already is and the good chip up it will give us is quite significant to our stack size. Given we clearly have a table full of fish, the ones who calls UTG open will have some low/medium pocket pairs, random suited connectors or weaker Ax hands (A9,AT,AJ maybe even AQ) will probably call because they only see their hand strength and don't think about ranges.

The problem is that like any decision in poker there is always more than one option. My reason for not shoving is that you were 40bb deep and you don't need to flip for your tournament life in this situation like somebody else said.


Yeah that's true - but that's what separates the winning players from losing ones. This spot here for example should be one of the most straight forward ones to be in. It's not like we have AJ/AQ where it becomes a tougher decision on what to do but AK is only a dog to AA/KK and just because someone opened UTG doesn't mean they have AK+ QQ+.

40bb isn't a bad amount of chips but it's not great either; there is sooo much dead money in the pot already and flipping for your tournament life (flipping at worse in most cases) when we're one of the short stacks at the table with 40bb with AKs is a great spot to be in, certainly one of the best spots you could be facing given the action in front.

I'm curious as to which hands you would actually shove here with? Only AA?
 
babydrago9

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I think the only mistake is folding or calling. And calling would be worst than folding. But the fact is if your playing at a loose table, and you fold you give up your chance of making some easy money a high percentage of the time.

Wtf dude? You're actually talking as if anyone would fold in this spot or something? Folding is CLEARLY not an option and BY FAR the worst choice; its a premium hand with a 2.5x raise at the end of the day.

IMO, I would raise to like 4.5k or something, if someone calls they should have AQ or a decent pocket pair, if they reshove they might have you beat, but better knowing this now than if you hit on the flop facing a set/higher pair.

Not to sure shoving is the best play here as your 45 bbs deep, but certainly not a terrible spot to do it in- as I said people might call with AQ or a decent pocket depending on who they are, and so your in a race or your dominating. Depends if you wanna risk it or not or if your players are oddly loose or something. But remember; your shoving with Ace high
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I really really think if he shoves they will all have to fold unless the UTG raiser had exactly AA/KK/QQ and if he had KK we are still 30% to spike an ace, and if he had QQ it is just a classic flip.

Flips happen in tourneys, if you do get called you are getting much better than 1:1 pot odds on your flip. This is one of those tournament defining hands. If you aren't willing to make a couple big plays and big flips per tourney, then tourneys might not be for you.

We are sitting on 18k and 45 BBs and an M=18. so we're comfortable but we're gonna need a lot more chips in the not too distant future to have a real shot at the big prize money.

Right now the pot has 1,000 (blinds +antes) Plus 1,000 raise plus 5,000 calls so 7,000. That represents nearly 40% increase in our stack size up for grabs in the pot.

I think because we are the BB shoving is optimal as we dont want to play a huge pot out of position on a hand that could so easily be ahead and miss the flop. If we were the button it would be a closer call between a big raise and a shove.

How are we going to feel if we raise it up to 5k (28% of our stack) and miss the flop and we check out of position and they make a huge bet? Aren't we going to wish we had just shoved preflop? They could even call us with AK preflop by the way, and take the pot away from us with position...

What if we raise it up to 5k and get 1 caller and then we spike an Ace and we bet out and they fold their JJ/QQ? aren't we going to wish we had them on the hook for a full double up?
 
MediaBLITZ

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great so one person said CALL another said RAISE and another said SHOVE - and all of you made sense, still haven't found clarity

If you think calling actually makes sense - then it is doubtful you will find clarity on this.
You call and you will likely have no idea where you are at - EVEN IF an A or K hits. Just list all of the potential hands that could be involved in this hand if you call - ANYTHING.
If the flop comes K93 - are you ahead or behind? Could someone have limped with 33... or K9 - ABSOLUTELY. Now what do you do- shove?
If the flop comes A78 - are you ahead or behind? Could someone have limped with 78... or A7 - ABSOLUTELY. Now what do you do- shove?
If the flop comes KT2 all hearts - are you ahead or behind? Could someone have limped with any two hearts... or KT - ABSOLUTELY. Now what do you do- shove?
You more than likely have some advantage preflop - coin flip at worst. Get some money in the pot and chase the one's wanting to spin the wheel of fortune out of there so you can make a more informed decision at the flop and don't end up where your fear had you ending up in the first place.
CALLING IS YOUR WORST OPTION
 
MisterLongFace

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i dont like a call here because an ace or king would look really good on the flop and now you're playing too much in the dark (with that many players in) if you bet out the flop and get a caller/raiser
 
vinylspiros

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I really agree with Ram here and especially due to the fact that there is so much dead money in the pot.

Had there not been so much dead money in the pot and it was us versus one villain and taking into consideration how deep we are, im going to have to agree with Media that raising is probably the best move here.

In general we dont want to be shoving pre with 40BB+, BUT when there is such a huge amount of money on the table and with a chance to double up and/or pick up the dead money, in this particular scenario, SHOVING is THE BEST choice undoubtedly.
 
burgdogky

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Why the hell would you NOT push here? 5 players call? QQ or better would def re-raise!! I think its a no brainer
 
lulu pk

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I think that whit 6k in the pot and 5 players in the hand,the only play to make whit 18k stack and AKs in the big blind is all in.
 
vinylspiros

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I think that whit 6k in the pot and 5 players in the hand,the only play to make whit 18k stack and AKs in the big blind is all in.


that or you could blind yourself out which is wrongly frowned upon in my opinion. People should get more into folding premiums.
 
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houtlijm

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i think it's justified here to push all in. little chance the first limper has AA or KK and probably small pockets won't call you here
 
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