Pot limit Omaha hi/lo hand analysis

hobonc

hobonc

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Game started at: 2013/12/19 17:37:8
Game ID: 233405439 200/400 $2 PLO Hi/Lo, Table 2 (Omaha HiLow)
Aprox. 20 left, pays 9 places
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: Folds (4616).
Seat 3: Villain 1 (13973). Play with him often in this. Plays kinda loose. Moderately spewy.
Seat 4: Villain 2 (3476).
Seat 5: Folds (6437).
Seat 6: Folds (66).
Seat 7: SinCityHobo (15689). 2nd place in tourney about 1k off lead
Seat 9: Folds (1966).
Player Villain 3 allin (66)
Player SinCityHobo has big blind (400)
Player SinCityHobo received card:
3c.png

Player SinCityHobo received card:
4c.png

Player SinCityHobo received card:
8h.png

Player SinCityHobo received card:
7d.png



Player Villain 1 raises (1266)
Player Villain 2 calls (1266)

Pre-flop I'm thinking its a pretty standard call, 3:1 odds. I have straight cards from A-8, a great low draw if an Ace hits, and a low hand with an Ace and 3 clubs on the board would be great.

Player SinCityHobo calls (866)



FLOP:
:
Jc.png
Ac.png
5d.png

Player SinCityHobo checks
Player Villain 1 bets (3864)
Player Villain 2 allin (2210)
Player SinCityHobo calls (3864)

Should I lead out with a bet? Would a raise put a pot size bettor off his hand?

TURN:
:
Jc.png
Ac.png
5d.png
Jh.png

Player SinCityHobo checks
Player Villain 1 checks


RIVER:
:
Jc.png
Ac.png
5d.png
Jh.png
Kd.png

Player SinCityHobo checks
Player Villain 1 checks
Player SinCityHobo mucks
cards
Player Villain 2 mucks
cards
-
SUMMARY:-
Pot: 13802. Rake 0

Board:
Jc.png
Ac.png
5d.png
Jh.png
Kd.png


Player Villain 1 shows
Two pair
5c.png
As.png
Ts.png
2s.png

. Bets: 5130. Collects: 13538. Wins: 8408.
Player Villain 2 mucks
. Bets: 3476. Collects: 0. Loses: 3476.

Player Villain 3 shows
Straight to A
8c.png
Qh.png
Td.png
Kh.png
. Bets: 66. Collects: 264. Wins: 198.

Player SinCityHobo mucks
. Bets: 5130. Collects: 0. Loses: 5130.

Game ended at: 2013/12/19 17:38:20

I don't know if a turn bet or river bet makes him fold. I was glad to see the checks but I am second guessing my play. It left me wishing I had folded pre. If a low club would have came I would have been in the driver's seat. I did manage to cash. Oh well, you win some and you lose some.
 
duggs

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thats a terrible hand fwiw
 
etherghost

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This hand is speculative and doesn't give you the highest percentage of outs, TBH. You are an underdog to anyone holding A+low card and a couple of face cards, maybe suited connectors.

You might want to check this quick NLO H/L hand guide: http://www.caniwin.com/poker/omahahilopre.php
 
hobonc

hobonc

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thats a terrible hand fwiw

It isn't worth much at all without a synopsis of your reasoning.

This hand is speculative and doesn't give you the highest percentage of outs, TBH. You are an underdog to anyone holding A+low card and a couple of face cards, maybe suited connectors.

You might want to check this quick NLO H/L hand guide: http://www.caniwin.com/poker/omahahilopre.php

It is indeed a very speculative hand. In fact, had I not been the BB and got such good odds at such a relatively low cost, it most likely is a fold. Then with that flop I had visions of sugar plums dancing in my head. I could have caught a low club from there for the scoop. Had I known all I would get is a couple lumps of coal I could have gotten away from it.
 
duggs

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No the starting hand is rubbish, you need an A to be able to continue on any flop, can only have strong wraps wit no chance at low and super non nut fds, fold pre
 
hobonc

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No the starting hand is rubbish, you need an A to be able to continue on any flop, can only have strong wraps wit no chance at low and super non nut fds, fold pre

I just couldn't fold with the money out there. Folding that with those odds is a tad too tight for me. Now had it been for a large enough portion of my stack, where I am danger of being pot committed on the flop, I probably fold. But you have to be willing to take risks and gamble in certain spots in tourney play.
 
C

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I once read an article on Omaha Hi/Lo and it was that playing for only the Hi or the Lo is a negative profit and not the greatest decision to make. hands that have strong pre-flop playability for the Hi and Lo are the ones you wanna play but I'm not a very good Omaha player anyway just reflecting on the situation.
 
hobonc

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I once read an article on Omaha Hi/Lo and it was that playing for only the Hi or the Lo is a negative profit and not the greatest decision to make. Hands that have strong pre-flop playability for the Hi and Lo are the ones you wanna play but I'm not a very good Omaha player anyway just reflecting on the situation.

If you have the high locked you have the nuts. I haven't done a formal investigation of my HH but it seems there is a noticeable difference in the number of splits I get with the high nuts; there are a lot less of them. I have no problems playing some hands that are high only.

Because there are more splits on the low side, they have less value when there is a danger of getting quartered. A double low hand loses pre-flop value this way.
 
duggs

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High only hands run a massive chance of being scooped, this is also multiway so we need hands that flop stronger than this,
 
DevilMe03

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I am folding this hand preflop because
1. This is a speculative hand with little connectedness. You want hands that play both ways and are connected in omaha hi-lo. As for your argument playing A-8 for low 7 8 are not really what i would call as low cards.
2. You are going to play this hand out of position. You want pot control if you want to play any speculative hand.
3. As for 3:1 odds on your money i would not put a single cent in this pot. Understand that your blinds are part of the pot and you have no right to blinds. Ask the question would you put any money in the pot UTG with your holding. If the answer is no why put money in BB.
4. Omaha games are more complex than holdem because of the many combinations possible. With any 4 cards you are more often than not hit some part of flop. So your mistakes can multiply manyfold if care is mot taken in preflop selection.you dont want to run into situation where your are not sure if you are ahead or not
 
S

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I just couldn't fold with the money out there. Folding that with those odds is a tad too tight for me. Now had it been for a large enough portion of my stack, where I am danger of being pot committed on the flop, I probably fold. But you have to be willing to take risks and gamble in certain spots in tourney play.
true you dont want to play to tight however this hand is not likely to be a scoop hand and you need more players preflop to take a peek and maybe a flop or drop hand at any rate not an almost flop and draw hand
 
hobonc

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true you dont want to play to tight however this hand is not likely to be a scoop hand and you need more players preflop to take a peek and maybe a flop or drop hand at any rate not an almost flop and draw hand


There were 3 in it not counting the SS. If you only play for scoop hands then you will severely limit yourself.
 
hobonc

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As for your argument playing A-8 for low 7 8 are not really what i would call as low cards.

The 7-8 was meant to cover the high end of a low straight, not to play for the low side of the hand.

3. As for 3:1 odds on your money i would not put a single cent in this pot. Understand that your blinds are part of the pot and you have no right to blinds. Ask the question would you put any money in the pot UTG with your holding. If the answer is no why put money in BB.

Because I knew there would be no further pre-flop action. UTG you would have the danger of a raise after your action. Here, you only risk a fraction of your stack to win 3 times the risk. It is still speculative but like I said, you can't just wait for the gravy train the whole tourney.
 
DevilMe03

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Because I knew there would be no further pre-flop action. UTG you would have the danger of a raise after your action. Here, you only risk a fraction of your stack to win 3 times the risk. It is still speculative but like I said, you can't just wait for the gravy train the whole tourney.
I would like to ask is would you ever consider folding in big blind then?
 
hobonc

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I would like to ask is would you ever consider folding in big blind then?

Of course I would surrender my BB uncontested. Had the hand been 2 7 9 K rainbow, for 3/4 of my stack, it would have been a snap fold. But say 2 7 9 K rainbow, in the BB, with a min raise and 8:1 odds, that same hand would be a call. Especially if UTG was the raiser. Pre flop, the BB is the one in position. Some times you can use that in your favor by knowing the pre-flop risk is an absolute.
 
JusSumguy

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I have to agree hob. I would have mucked the hand PF.

Each one of the hands it could make end up on the low side (straights and flushes.) And the high(er) side of the low.

-
 
hobonc

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I have to agree hob. I would have mucked the hand PF.

Each one of the hands it could make end up on the low side (straights and flushes.) And the high(er) side of the low.

-

Just look at the flop to see it's potential. Any low club that doesn't pair the board is a scoop. I know it dropped bricks but are you really folding to a raise that is such a small portion of your stack with 3:1 odds and tons of implied odds against spewy? You can only be so selective about the spots you take risks in playing tourney play. If you don't do minimal risk vs large reward gambles you're playing tighter than I like to play.
 
duggs

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this is a nut flop and your equity isn't even dominant….
 
JusSumguy

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Just look at the flop to see it's potential. Any low club that doesn't pair the board is a scoop. I know it dropped bricks but are you really folding to a raise that is such a small portion of your stack with 3:1 odds and tons of implied odds against spewy? You can only be so selective about the spots you take risks in playing tourney play. If you don't do minimal risk vs large reward gambles you're playing tighter than I like to play.
If I won't raise PF in PL, calling becomes a wait and see.

Not the spot I enjoy as PL pots get big fast. I prefer to wait for something I can take the lead with.

-
 
hobonc

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this is a nut flop and your equity isn't even dominant….

And it won't always be. Their equity pre-flop wasn't dominant either, which brings the pot and implied odds back into the equation.
 
hobonc

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If I won't raise PF in PL, calling becomes a wait and see.

Not the spot I enjoy as PL pots get big fast. I prefer to wait for something I can take the lead with.

-

I did take the lead....as duggs pointed out, it wasn't dominant. I was 42% to win high vs 39% (v1) and 18% (v2). The other guy only had 66 chips all in so I didn't calculate his hand into it.
Vs v1 I was almost dead even with him pre on the low and ad a dominate lead on him on the flop low-wise.
 
rock0001

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thats a terrible call, considering any villain could be having hands like A234 or even AA23, so what are exacty your odds of winning the hand? i think they are very slim and you are just relying on luck, because odds are just awful here, even against a single villain.
 
hobonc

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thats a terrible call, considering any villain could be having hands like A234 or even AA23, so what are exacty your odds of winning the hand? i think they are very slim and you are just relying on luck, because odds are just awful here, even against a single villain.

I play against V1 regularly. he is way too spewy to worry about him having that narrow of a range. V2 probably doesn't flat with AA23. My odds of winning the high were nearly 30% pre-flop @ 3:1 odds.

Just look at how the hand playe on the flop.

You are in a situation where 5% of your stack pre-flop buys you a long term, close to breaking even situation, where you could not only take the chip lead with 17 players left, you'd have 2x the chips of the 2nd highest stack. I was a low club on the turn away from doing just that.
 
duggs

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why post the hand if you already have it figured out?
 
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