is position over cards still relevant?

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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In Arnold Snyder's "the poker tournament forumula" He advocates a rock paper scissors strategy, where rock is chips, paper is cards, and scissors is position. according to Snyder's advice, chips beat position, position beats cards and cards beat chips.

Is this advice still relevant? or would a averaging approach be relevent, where chips + position + cards /3 = play the hand or not (i hope that makes sense the way i said that)

Currently I play in a way where i wont make a position play if I have terrible cards even if the conditions are prime to make that position play. is that just me being afraid to trust the position strategy or is it a smart conservative play.


I will admit, i need to read Snyder's book again, its been a long time since i've read it. also I have not read Harrington, but I've heard that Snyder's book is considered on par with Harrington.
 
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WiZZiM

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if the conditions are prime to make a play, then make it. stop getting bogged down by what you should or shouldn't do. use his information and then interpret that in your way to form your own approach to poker. If you don't, then you are just regurgitating his information and likely not using it correctly or missing spots because you misinterpret the strategy or whatever.

anyways, stop being so literal about what books teach you, they are there to provide you with background knowledge so you can form your own style!

Example, two tight players in the blinds and i have the button, i'm going to raise ATC because i know they will fold enough to make a simple raise profitable, and i know the types of ranges tight players play, so even if they do call i know which flops to c-bet and which to not c-bet, simple. If i had to think about what button range im playing and some strategy that a person told me i should do then i'd totally fold and miss the spot and also miss the point of playing poker, which is to work out ways to take other players chips essentially.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I see what youre saying, and I definitely agree. Imagine if everyone played with the exact same cookie-cutter by the book strategy
 
jgreenman18

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Position is only a powerful tool if you take advantage of it

So I guess in this respect you could say it depends on the player. Many people do not understand how to use it properly and put moves on their opponent to cause confusion and fear.
 
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Dan Lucas

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I think the biggest mistake people make when concerned about cards vs chips vs position is to not have a strategy based on how other players react to your move. For example, everyone folds to you on the button so you raise to steal blinds. Do you have a next move planned for example if SB or BB raises or shoves? If you have a decent hand, say A 10 in BB and button raises you, so you re-raise and button shoves. Were you prepared for this move? Using position is very powerful, but you have to be prepared to listen to what other players tell you by their next play. I hope this makes some kind of sense.
 
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DobbieElf

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I don't think the position is relevant. But i'm just a beginner.
 
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subdylzep

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Every situation and table is different. If you are a on a really tight table or against a nit on the BB and you can make a play, make it. A lot of books are written for just generalized theories and beginners to learn how to approach a tournament or a game. If you ask me, once you play more and more you realize that every situation is different. Many have great points and there is always something you can learn, but more often then not, it just depends on the situation... every situation is different. Thats what being a professional is all about, the different ways to approach each table and each situation. Gl in future events.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Every situation and table is different. If you are a on a really tight table or against a nit on the BB and you can make a play, make it. A lot of books are written for just generalized theories and beginners to learn how to approach a tournament or a game. If you ask me, once you play more and more you realize that every situation is different. Many have great points and there is always something you can learn, but more often then not, it just depends on the situation... every situation is different. Thats what being a professional is all about, the different ways to approach each table and each situation. Gl in future events.
Very good advice, thank you. Its good to think about it from that perspective
 
bullishwwd

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In Arnold Snyder's "the poker tournament forumula" He advocates a rock paper scissors strategy, where rock is chips, paper is cards, and scissors is position. according to Snyder's advice, chips beat position, position beats cards and cards beat chips.

Is this advice still relevant? or would a averaging approach be relevent, where chips + position + cards /3 = play the hand or not (i hope that makes sense the way i said that)

Currently I play in a way where i wont make a position play if I have terrible cards even if the conditions are prime to make that position play. is that just me being afraid to trust the position strategy or is it a smart conservative play.


I will admit, i need to read Snyder's book again, its been a long time since i've read it. also I have not read Harrington, but I've heard that Snyder's book is considered on par with Harrington.
I do ascribe to "rock, paper, scissors", but other factors still need to be considered too ... player's tendencies (notes), what part of tournament we are in (Early stage, middle, late stage, final table, Bubble, or HU), Common Cards - board, etc.

Usually, the best choice is best based on a 'combination' of factors, but a 'rock, paper, scissors' is a good general strategy. It's better than no strategy!

Even the best of strategies can lead to a 'river card' loss, so be patient, tolerant, and accepting ... hey, it is poker (a game) ... life is much like that as well.

Good choices will, in the long run, result in more winning hands for you.


Wally
 
MattRyder

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The more I play the more I realize that every situation is NOT different. There are a finite number of things that are going to happen depending (as you say) on chips, position and cards, PLUS the other player types and luck. Two of these are completely unknown: the other players' cards and luck. Of those two, one can sometimes be deduced to a fair degree of accuracy, i.e., the other players' cards. Luck cannot be precisely predicted - that's why we have odds tables. The other player types can be learned over time.

Position is important, yes - but more experienced (expert?) players will use EARLY position to their advantage by taking the initiative and betting into a player who the expert perceives as having certain cards and a propensity to avoid risk.

Chips provide you with a margin for error (and luck). They allow you to bully less experienced players. But they also make you a target for experienced players who are looking to double-up.

Your cards provide a good starting point, but often become somewhat irrelevant once the community cards are on the table.

Theory provides an excellent foundation. Practice makes perfect.

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dejan85

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depeand of player some player use position and play good ,and also you can never know..
 
SBEP

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Well all three give you information bout your opponent jand, so i would say all three of them are important, i wouldn't say one is more important then the other, coz i can argue for everyone of them making them the most important in the example, so always try to gather as much info as u can b4 and after u play a hand, so that decision making gets easier with every hand, the better the info the better the decision u have made.
 
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Poker is like a mathematical equation.

(Stack + Cards + Position) - Opponent's (Stack + Cards + Position)
Stack - is calculated in ratio. same size is 1:1' 2:1,10:1 and so on.
Position - 1-9
Cards - have a numerical value based on rank, after the flop based on odds of winning. cards is the hardest part of the equation because you have to be good at reading your opponent's range.

If you are negative, then fold, if you are positive, then raise. The larger the positive, the better your odd.

Let's say your range is the top 20 starting hole cards.

you are on the button with AA your opponent is a tight player and 3 bets UTG
You have 10,000 chips vrs. opponent's 30,000. We put opponent on QQ, KK
(1+20+9) - (3+ 19 + 3) = +5 Raise

You are in the big blind with AQ Suited. Your opponent is loose and limps at UTG+1 Your stack is 30,000 and opponents is 5,000. We range opponent on either a small pair or suited connector
(6+12+2) - (1+5+4) = 9 Raise

Stacks are equal. You are UTG+2 with 88. Your tight opponent is UTG and 3 bets
(1+12+5) - (1+18+3) = -3 FOLD

You need to first figure out your range and ranks. There are several on the web. I use the top 20 hands. That is the easy part. The hard part is putting your opponent on their range and an assumption has to be made and a value attached to that value. The better at reading your opponents range the more accurate the equation.
 
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luiaguila

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the position is essential but do not think is the most important and about the books , forums , everywhere are there to give you an idea about the game not to follow them to the letter
 
teepack

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Position is important, but like always, rules have to be flexible.

One of the general tenets in position is that if it folds to you and you're on the button, you raise to try to steal the blinds. But what if you are down to your last 5 BBs and you're on the money bubble and you get 9-3? If either of the blinds has relatively large stacks (40 BBs or higher) and can call you without blinking an eye, then what would be the point of trying to steal the blinds? And why risk going out on the bubble when maybe you can wait for either another player to bust our or a better opportunity for a double up?

It's good to have a strategy, but you have to be adaptable as well.
 
mbrenneman0

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Position is important, but like always, rules have to be flexible.

One of the general tenets in position is that if it folds to you and you're on the button, you raise to try to steal the blinds. But what if you are down to your last 5 BBs and you're on the money bubble and you get 9-3? If either of the blinds has relatively large stacks (40 BBs or higher) and can call you without blinking an eye, then what would be the point of trying to steal the blinds? And why risk going out on the bubble when maybe you can wait for either another player to bust our or a better opportunity for a double up?

It's good to have a strategy, but you have to be adaptable as well.
True, in the book, Snyder goes into a lot of detail into the exceptions and when it applies and when it doesn't, and fleshes out a plan that's solid enough and flexible enough based on player types, tournament structure, chip stack etc.. that you could make it to the bubble a lot of times without even looking at the cards and strictly playing position. My explanation is very very generalized of what he takes a couple chapters to describe. (at least his plan worked back in 2011 before black Friday when I first read the book)
 
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paulsmall007

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Position can only be useful when you've established a read through some time with the same players. Or your attacking stacks smaller then your own, To situational. To be An exact science
 
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Poom12

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This might be a good template however, the game has evolved a lot that it really just depends on how the player feels.
 
dmitriy skripka

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my advice is that everyone takes the advice from the books on their own,a lot of great poker players looking for their game themselves, and if you read a lot of books of different masters of the rocker, it will not help you, it is necessary to learn only in the game,all the situations not predict.
 
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