Pockets - call then fold?

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screamingmidget

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Due to some brilliant posts on a recent thread I started, I'm pretty much winning or finishing 1st/2nd/3rd (money) in every tournament I'm entering so doing ok, and I'm not even sure if this is a bad thing, but I call on pockets and then if the flop is awful, I fold.

Does anybody else fall into this 'trap' - if somebody raises, unless it's like 10-10 I'll call but with a set only coming 12% of the time, I sometimes wonder if it's the smart move.
 
nera75

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small pairs I color 1 to 15, 77+ I take in 3 bet
 
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screamingmidget

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small pairs I color 1 to 15, 77+ I take in 3 bet

I rank hands A to H. For me small pockets is 88 down, but like to see the flop regardless until somebody raises. If it's 88 or down, I'll normally fold unless you know the opponent.
 
zinzir

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Congratulations on your success, and good luck in the future! It would be really awesome if your winnings were the result of the posts you read here, and not a fortunate episode of variance. If you are playing no limit and taking into consideration the 12% odds to hit a set on the flop, then you need to also consider the implied odds dictated by your opponents' stack size. You need to make sure there is enough money to be made in that hand if you hit your set, to justify the odds. That is one of the reasons I prefer the minimum buy-in at cash tables, because when you are the short stack all your opponents have enough money in front of them, and on the other hand you are the one messing with their own implied odds.
 
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BoyNamedSude

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Bro... I can't count the amount of times I have gone all-in, on pockets less than 10's and lost... and have outright folded anything from pocket 5's and less...
The positioning has to be favourable, but really, anytime there are 4 or more people in, at the flop, anything less than KQ is a bad risk, and any pocket pair less than QQ...
EFPZruyW4AAYGFG
 
Matt_Burns88

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Congrats on your recent successes! Long may they continue!
 
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screamingmidget

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If you are playing no limit and taking the consideration the 12% odds to hit a set on the flop, then you have to consider the implied odds dictated by your opponents' stack size. You need to make sure there is enough money to be made in that hand if you hit your set, to justify the odds. That is one of the reasons I prefer the minimum buy-in at cash tables, because when you are the short stack all your opponents have enough money in front of them, and on the other hand you are the one messing with their own implied odds.

Great reply, thanks.

Yeah it's no limit - always learning and I managed to finish 3rd even without a single good hand. The wins come when I have decent cards.

Position matters to me a lot too. Give me 44 in first position and I'll sometimes call, but in my head I'm already ready to fold. This is the bit I'm dodgy over. If the 4 flops I'm then of course very agressive depending on the other 2 cards.

I guess there is no defnite answer. Stack, opponents, position etc.
 
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Philwalmsley

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Fold

start of the game and to be handed pocket rockets, everytime I’ve played them like aces I end up losing 1/3 of me stack... halfway though the game it seems to work! But I think that’s down to bingo callers and not playing to win..
thought?
 
tauri103

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when I have a good stack. I decide to play them or not according to the level of profitability of the spot. if my or my opponent has a lot of chips then I do not hesitate call preflop even with 22 as long as I do not have to call an all-in.par against if the risk is not worthwhile then I do not hesitate to fold.
 
zinzir

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Great reply, thanks.

Yeah it's no limit - always learning and I managed to finish 3rd even without a single good hand. The wins come when I have decent cards.

Position matters to me a lot too. Give me 44 in first position and I'll sometimes call, but in my head I'm already ready to fold. This is the bit I'm dodgy over. If the 4 flops I'm then of course very agressive depending on the other 2 cards.

I guess there is no defnite answer. Stack, opponents, position etc.

Keep rocking on my brother, I hope your good run lasts forever!
 
Jon Poker

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Another congrats to your recent success, it isnt easy to consistently FT alot of MTTs - let alone win several of them.

Now, onto the pocket pairs...for me "small" pairs are 66 and less, mid pairs are 77-TT and high pairs are JJ+. This is my own personal strategy so take it for what it is.

A good rule of thumb when going to the flop with a "speculative hand" - whether it be a pocket pair or suited connector - is to not risk more than 10% of your stack to do so. If you have 8k on the BTN and someone makes a huge open to 3k and you have 55s - its probably a good idea to just fold and move on - its a huge chunk of our stack and really all we are looking to do is set mine here and there are not a ton of good flops coming for our tiny little 5's so it is an all around a terrible play to call. If we are playing this hand in this example at all it should be All In or fold - me personally, I would fold unless I knew for a fact my opponent was opening any 2 cards and I was willing to flip.

Small pairs out of position/early position - I usually fold these from UTG seats at a full 9 or 8 handed table. You could argue for a limp - call strategy, but this turns your hand face up when you raise someone post flop or tend to call on very dry unconnected boards so for me, if i cant open the hand, I fold and move on. As iterated in the example above - there are not going to be a ton of good flops for pairs 66 and under - so no sense committing unnecessary chips into the pot if we don't have to. That being said, with a healthy stack and from late position - I am always opening small pairs.

Mid pairs I will open sometimes from early positions, sometimes I will limp call with them and sometimes I will fold 77 or 88 - 99 or TT from UTG, I generally suck it up and open. Anyhow, UTG at a 9 handed table with a middling stack if I go opening 88, there aren't going to be a high number of flops I am comfortable with and if I were to get 3bet preflop then I am going to be in a spot where I will be very uncomfortable making any decision other than folding. If we commit and see the flop and it comes down K J 4 - then what are we going to do? Especially if we are out of position? It just leads to a huge mess so early position and mid pairs should be approached with caution.
I am always opening middle pairs in middle and late table positions. They can generally be played accordingly and pretty profitably post flop especially if you have position - keep in mind even when we are in later position we still don't want to get 3bet while holding a mid range pair.

Big pairs - pretty standard, we open these pairs all the time from all positions and if we get 3bet we are usually comfortable calling if not putting in the cold 4bet. These are the easiest pairs to play so I don't think there is much use to dive into a ton of detail.

One more comment - an earlier reply said they were "3 betting all pairs 77+ in position" - I do not like this line and do not agree with this at all. Yes - we need to balance our range and should not only be 3 betting AA, KK, QQ, AK, JJ, etc - so maybe we can do this once in a while in situations where our stack size allows us to put pressure on our opponents and make moves like this. The problem with sticking to this logic religiously is that if you are constantly 3 betting mid pairs it opens the door to a huge list of problems.

Say we do 3 bet 77, 88 ,99 or even TT - and then we get hit with a huge 4 bet or the opponent just jams on us...well now what? When do we call off? What are they shoving/4 betting us with - do we beat that shove/4bet range? Lots of problems open up and we can easily answer these when we are holding premium pairs so the decision isn't anywhere near as difficult or crucial.
The other side is they just cold call the 3 bet - well now heading to the flop with 99 or less - how many boards are going to be safe for us? What could our opponents call a 3 bet with? Does that connect with the flop? Do we beat their 3bet calling range on the flop? I have made this mistake 100000 times over the course my online play and it took a while but I did eventually learn -- say we do have 99, we 3 bet, an opponent calls and the flop comes out::

K 4 8 - our opponent checks so we decide to cbet this board - then we get check raised and our opponent goes all in - we cover them well enough and it costs us roughly 35% (or less) of our stack to make the call, so we do and they show up with KQ, KJ, KT, etc...one over card on the board and they slammed it. How many times have you seen this happen? Too much, right? Well we avoid this by checking back flop - the turn comes a brick we can call a turn bet - and if they make a reasonable river bet we can probably call that too - we still lose the hand, but we lose a lot less chips in the end playing it this way. We achieve roughly the same result by just calling their open preflop and NOT 3 betting them - the flop comes the same, they cbet - we call, then we can evaluate the turns and rivers as they come and we are not over committed. Make sense?

I hope this insight helps out and improves your play in some shape or form. Thanks for reading.
 
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screamingmidget

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Big time now realising that folding on lower pockets is the way to go, if there's a few still in the hand. Just not worth it.

Get 5 in the hand and you know that at least one will be lucky.
 
Bluffzone68

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Hey

Great going with cashing in every MTT.

Pocket pairs like 2-10 are best “just call”.
If raised 2-3BB then I will call.

If raise is bigger then I fold.

And depending on the flop, take action.
 
Luvepoker

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I can see this being fine with smaller pairs but being a terrible mistake if you have bigger pairs. say you have pocket 9.s and the flop is jack, 7 4. you are only loosing to a over pair and a jack if they hit. Folding on the flop right away in my opinion would be a mistake here. If they continue on the turn and river or another over card shows it would not be so bad but on the flop you will be exploitable.
 
Vilgeoforc

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In tournaments, a lot will depend on the size of your stack, the stage of the tournament and, of course, the position and type of villain. In order to see the flop pocket pairs I don't see big mistake.
 
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The more people call, the better the pot odds. I call then fold too sometimes.
 
syarbouh

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Depends on the stack, If you have a short stack and the bet in the flop is too high it's better to fold.
 
korneel

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If alot of people limp in, I will also call with a small pocket.
If you hit your set, somebody else will also hit something (but lower) and you will win alot :)
 
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The usual variables are involved as to whether you call, bet or fold. Position, amount of players in the pot, players fold equity to a raise, your table image, your opponents hand range, position in the tournament, number of BBs left, yada yada. As long as you're in position and you're isolated against one, maybe two players, depending on all of those previous variables (that should be at least somewhat answered by that stage in a tournament), you can raise with pocket duces and still walk away ahead.. continuation bets are a wonderful thing
 
Alekxandrovi3

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I had the same problem. I get into the money almost all tournaments. But even a large stack begins to melt at a late stage. Approximately when only less than 100 players from around 5 million. And long I thought what was a mistake. When I started to venture into such a situation that you describe, I greatly improved my game. In the late stage of players start more often than before bluffing. If the opponents see that you are often dropping, they understand that you are willing to lose very strong hands if done correctly raised. Find the strength to risk.
 
bigredwolf

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I hope this insight helps out and improves your play in some shape or form. Thanks for reading.


Well this helped me for sure, great post!

Been having some issues with the PPs lately, (twss), so this helped me focus on what I was doing wrong, and what were just bad beats. I am not playing that badly after all, so thanks!
 
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mara2259

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If in each tournament with your participation you fall into the top three winners, our tips are unlikely to help you. Nevertheless, I willingly enter the game for cheap (no more than 3BB) with any small pairs. If the events take on an unfavorable nature, I easily exit the game. If the hand is strengthened before the set it is very easy to disguise it and you can break a decent bank. In this case, 12% is not so small.
 
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