spunka
Visionary
Bronze Level
I think I would not enter the pot as the 1. player with a limp, why let anyone see a flop for free.
however if the was another limper in i would limp with a pp.
Early in the tournament I would play i carefully depending on the structure of the flop and how big my pp are and still be carefull if there's a lot of action with a draw heavy flop...even if I hit my set
however if the was another limper in i would limp with a pp.
Early in the tournament I would play i carefully depending on the structure of the flop and how big my pp are and still be carefull if there's a lot of action with a draw heavy flop...even if I hit my set
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
This is pretty much how I play them.
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Tangerine 53
Rock Star
Silver Level
Ditto with the exception that for small PP's and in early / mid position early in the tourney I'm going to lay them down.
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steortex
Rock Star
Silver Level
What is the reasoning of just laying them down when the blinds are so low why wouldnt you just call? then if someone raises fold
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Tangerine 53
Rock Star
Silver Level
I can see your point but my experience is that if I just limp in EP then 7-8 times out of 10 the pot gets raised in any event. As for those 2-3 times when it doesn't get raised I get to see a flop where I'm looking to make a set which offer odds of 7.5 to 1. It isn't a +EV move to call the raise (again this is all early in the tourney and where I am in EP) and given that the pot is likely to be raised after I limp why would I limp in the first place? I'll keep my chips as at that point in the tourney they are too valuable.
An exception may be if there have been 1-2 limpers prior to me where my experience is that the pot is not as likely to be raised. There I will attempt to set mine more and if gets raised then I fold.
Maybe I'm too much of a nit! Would welcome views from others.
spunka
Visionary
Bronze Level
You have to take into account the expected value IF you hit you're set. that is why you can call a raise to see a flop, I read somwhere that you can actually call as long as you only put around 10% of you're stack in preflop and you're opponent(s) have a stack around you seize. The more that enters the pot the more likely you will be to call unless it's raises and over raises ofc.
loopmeister
Rock Star
Silver Level
+1
Also, in LP I'll sometimes limp (~50% of the time) 33-66 if there are 2+ limpers before me to set mine. Puts you at risk of the blinds squeezing though. When this happens, you're usually last to act and can 3-bet or fold depending on the action before you.
At aggressive tables, I'll fold 22-44 in EP.
loopmeister
Rock Star
Silver Level
tarinoidenkertoja
Enthusiast
Silver Level
True. 12% is fairly rar
Yes, but I still think that generally speaking a set , in NLHE , is the most deceiving hand
Once someone else hits a flop with hands as KJ,KQ.. (hands which many times you simply limp with) and you've a set,it is very common to see an all-in. That's why i simply limp with pairs as 88,99 .. , in case i don't get anything i can simply lay it down, but with a set i know i'll most probably take down a big pot.
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Tangerine 53
Rock Star
Silver Level
Raise if I'm first to act. I might call a raise but I'm not likely to 3 bet with them unless I'm up against someone realllly loose.
bonflizubi
Visionary
Silver Level
Don't limp in with the mid and low pairs from early position. Raise.
By limping you are showing two things to anyone at the table with an eyeball:
1) if you don't limp often, they are pegging yo ufor a pocket pair exactly like what you have.. Never limping keeps your hand much better disguised. ALso, since your hand is face up, they will never give yo uany action if you hit your set and go off
2) it might work fine at micro micro levels, but playing with better players, they will notice the limp and start to exploit you as the weak-passive type that you are.
3) If there are antes, it's even more imperative to raise as there is a decent chance it just folds around.
TO sum up. you have 33 and raise UTG and someone calls in the big blind . FLop hits them hard but has a 3 in it. Will they ever put you on a 3?
Or, you limp, strong player re-pops you on the button, you just call. Flop hits them hard but you go banannas with your set of threes. Do they pay you? Not as likely...
By limping you are showing two things to anyone at the table with an eyeball:
1) if you don't limp often, they are pegging yo ufor a pocket pair exactly like what you have.. Never limping keeps your hand much better disguised. ALso, since your hand is face up, they will never give yo uany action if you hit your set and go off
2) it might work fine at micro micro levels, but playing with better players, they will notice the limp and start to exploit you as the weak-passive type that you are.
3) If there are antes, it's even more imperative to raise as there is a decent chance it just folds around.
TO sum up. you have 33 and raise UTG and someone calls in the big blind . FLop hits them hard but has a 3 in it. Will they ever put you on a 3?
Or, you limp, strong player re-pops you on the button, you just call. Flop hits them hard but you go banannas with your set of threes. Do they pay you? Not as likely...
ben_rhyno
Legend
Silver Level
+1 I really like this point of view and this is how I play them. Aswell, raising gives a chance to take the blinds and you can maybe take the pot with a c-bet on the flop, but you can also get away easily if you miss, or the flop is super wet
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HomeBrewer
Visionary
Silver Level
This is absolutely a valid point. Now I know that you are probably going to want to answer a follow up question with 'it depends on the situation' but I will ask anyways. What are your views on when your opponent starts to stand up to you with a 3-bet? You speak about a solid player who is now paying attention. I wonder how often can we really call oop?
Obviously these hands are some of the trickiest to play is why I ask. And I KNOW that small pp are a big leak in my game. Just thought I would shift the discussion to pick your brain as much as possible for our benefit
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Tangerine 53
Rock Star
Silver Level
This is absolutely a valid point. Now I know that you are probably going to want to answer a follow up question with 'it depends on the situation' but I will ask anyways. What are your views on when your opponent starts to stand up to you with a 3-bet? You speak about a solid player who is now paying attention. I wonder how often can we really call oop?
Obviously these hands are some of the trickiest to play is why I ask. And I KNOW that small pp are a big leak in my game. Just thought I would shift the discussion to pick your brain as much as possible for our benefit
Assuming you're referring to the OP which talked about EP early in a tourney then I'm probably going to fold (again discounting all the other 'it depends' factors such as the villain stats, table dynamics etc). For low to mid PP there are just too many flops that will be poor for us particularly if we're OOP and against a 3 bet. Early in a tourney we can live to fight another battle - this one has the potential for us just to bleed chips with a potentially marginal hand.
But you're right - it does depend!
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Tangerine 53
Rock Star
Silver Level
On what basis? What's your rationale for taking this approach? I'm especially interested why you do this regardless of your position.
Do you find this approach +EV?
bonflizubi
Visionary
Silver Level
You flat OOP when you are deep enough stackwise to make set-mining profitable. If you aren't that deep then either open fold (nothing forces you to play 22 UTG) or be willing to raise and fold. on 20bb you might might** want to just open muck 22-55 or something like that if you are afraid to raise/fold. On the other hand you should get more credit for having raised from early position and are less likely to get 3bet IMO.
IF you are sitting on 45bb at the other extreme, I'd have no problem raise/folding all day long.
Also, you need to be thinking about the stack sizes you are raising into. If there are a bunch of 15-20bb stacks, you might choose to fold pre if they are likely to 3bet shipping and you arent calling off.
You can also choose to 4 bet if you are getting 3bet too much if you want to turn your hand into a bluff.
I think teebee is half right half wrong.
On the one hand, keeping your raises all the same size (as BB multiples) disguises your hand strength. It's obscene how many players have betsizing tells... particularly where they open bigger with premiums. And by bigger I mean bigger than the table standard or their own standard. Bad players often raise 3.5x or more late in tourneys with mid pairs bc they are scared to get flatted.
I've stolen more chips / made more easy laydowns pre from betsizing on raises than any other thing in the game. Example- if someone is 2.5xing all day and then 3xs all of a sudden, it's 99% of the time a monster hand.
So, if you raise, for example, 3x with whatever you are holding people can't tell what you have. could be AA or 72.
Now, on the other hand, while I believe betsizing should stay standard for all your opens, it should change with the stage of the tournament. Raising less than 3x 1st level of a 3k stack tournament is begging to get called. However, as blinds rise and stacks effectively dwindle, you can raise less, especially once antes kick in - as calling ANY raise will dent most stacks.
with antes in play 2.2 - 2.4x is the norm these days, if not min-raising only. The idea here is also that the fewer chips you can get away with risking the better.... so standardize your raise sizing to the smallest amount the table will let you get away with. Not only do you save on the raise, you save on the cbet too, assuming you bet the same % of the pot.
There are only three exceptions I can think of to vary your open sizing:
1) if you can really randomize your opens and make them all different (though staying around some multiple) - though it's easy to accidentally tip your hand this way.
2) Sometimes I vary it with the table. If the table is not responding the way I want- i might raise my open size (though keeping it standard) if they are stations. If the table norm is smaller I'll go smaller to stay in line with the table. (Though if the table norm is 3.5x I'm not following the crowd- they are just wasting chips.)
3) When raising into a very short stack, I will raise less if necessary, so that their shove is just enough to be a raise and not a call. That way if someone flats behind I can shove and isolate. If I raise 3x and the shorty has 4bb and shoves.. and there is a flat behind, I can't reopen the betting and shove.