Pocket Kings with Ace on the turn

Acemeister80 · May 8, 2014

Hello Cardschatters!

i was after a bit of advice on a tricky spot that i found myself in a couple of times recently.

Lets give an example....

9-handed MTT mid stages and sitting with around 30K with 500/1000 blinds so 30BB.

You pick up KK on the button and bigger-stacked villain from mid position raises to 2.5K. I think 30BB here is way too big for a shove so a 3-bet is the best option - to around say 6.5K? (any comments on bet sizing would be appreciated).

Lets say villain calls so we have about 15K in the pot.
Flop come out pretty safe for KK, something like 2 8 J.

Villain checks to us. No we have 23.5K behind so maybe a shove is an option but i instead bet 8K (bet sizing?) and get called by villian so the pots up to 31K and i have 15.5K behind.

Then an Ace hits on the turn. Villain still checks to us so whats the best move here? Just for the record, in this case i panic shoved and he folded but i thinks a terrible play. We´re only getting called really by a hand that crushes us.

But if you check the turn then youre basically shouting to your opponent "I dont like that Ace" coz you only have a half pot sized bet behind. Which leaves the door open for them to bluff the river with their bigger stack putting you in a tricky spot for your tournament life.

Im thinking that a check on the turn and check/crying-call on the river is the best option. If you shove the turn youre getting called by better hands and most others fold. If you check the turn and call the river then youre gonna be picking off bluffs as well as the occasional hand that beats you. So youre always gonna go to showdown but checking the turn lets you pick of some bluffs.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated coz iv had this spot a couple of times recently and maybe my troubles are down to my bet sizing!

mrbiggles · May 8, 2014

First off, I am a complete beginner & basically do not understand half the terms you used above.

I can only say what I have done in this situation as it happened to me yesterday.

Another person who I had noticed only bet when he had something decent, bet something like $300 after the ace came down.

I folded my two kings even though it was very hard to do. He could of been bluffing however I have found that the odds are usually a person is not bluffing. So I tend to assume they are not bluffing unless I have seen them play for a little while and been able to catch them out.

Colbefc · May 8, 2014

When you shoved you did exactly the right thing, he folded so you won the hand. If he is calls he has the ace so either way you know if you are beat or not. You never learn anything by checking, only by betting.

thatgreekdude · May 8, 2014

I'd prefer to just jam the flop, he's most likely going to call regardless if you cbet or jam if he hit the board, don't actually know what villain had looks like he probably hit the jack with some sort of broadway combo and folds to scare card. In this spot I'd probaly check back turn and re evaluate river.

newbie in training · May 8, 2014

imo half pot could have been a tad more probably like 9k on flop and 10k is pushing it on such a dry flop

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

Acemeister80 · May 9, 2014

maybe your right greekdude. jamming the flop is maybe the better play. I chose tp bet instead of shoving for value. But hes gonna call a shove with anything thats worth calling 8K or so anyway. If anything the Ace loses me value because its a scare card for him

Arjonius · May 9, 2014

Acemeister80 said:
But if you check the turn then youre basically shouting to your opponent "I dont like that Ace" coz you only have a half pot sized bet behind. Which leaves the door open for them to bluff the river with their bigger stack putting you in a tricky spot for your tournament life.

Im thinking that a check on the turn and check/crying-call on the river is the best option. If you shove the turn youre getting called by better hands and most others fold. If you check the turn and call the river then youre gonna be picking off bluffs as well as the occasional hand that beats you. So youre always gonna go to showdown but checking the turn lets you pick of some bluffs.

You seem to be omitting the scenario where you check the turn and he bets, probably putting you all in since you have only a half-pot left. If you're planning to bluff-catch on the river, why assume he will only bluff then and not on the turn? Are you folding if he bets the turn and calling if he waits until the river?

left52side · May 9, 2014

Personally I think 3 bet on pre flop was somewhat weak.
I would have went to say around 8.5k or 9k and showed some power strength.
Then on flop I would have jammed and if villian had A/j or something similar would have snap called.
The ace scared them as much as it scared you.

Acemeister80 · May 9, 2014

Arjonius said:
You seem to be omitting the scenario where you check the turn and he bets, probably putting you all in since you have only a half-pot left. If you're planning to bluff-catch on the river, why assume he will only bluff then and not on the turn? Are you folding if he bets the turn and calling if he waits until the river?

we have position on him. so if he checks the turn, my question was what is our best move here - do we check behind? My thinking was to maybe check after him on the turn and then call his bet regardless on the river and hope that youre catching a bluff.

Arjonius · May 10, 2014

Acemeister80 said:
we have position on him. so if he checks the turn, my question was what is our best move here - do we check behind? My thinking was to maybe check after him on the turn and then call his bet regardless on the river and hope that youre catching a bluff.

The main point I was trying to get at is whether you might want to think more about alternate possibilities. For instance, why does checking behind the turn shout that you don't like the A?

What if you do like it? Isn't it possible that with only a half-pot bet left, you'd check behind in the hope of increasing the chance of action on the river, either by him betting or by checking then making a crying call when you bet? If there's a reasonable chance you'd check behind when the A improved you, then it doesn't shout like you said.

Note that considering alternate possibilities doesn't automatically lead to different decisions.

hffjd2000 · May 10, 2014

Your preflop 3bet is very poor as well as your flop bet.

You said your problem is bet sizing. Maybe you can take a look about the topic "pot odds".

Goodluck...

T0mmmi · May 10, 2014

After reading the above situation, you shoudl have :

1) I would definitely make larger 3bet ( at least twice x what you 3bet)

2) Show it on the Flop as there are many cards that beat you and might come on Turn or River

You had premium hand and you were big favorite after the Flop so no point of not showing it >>> then you would not come in such ugly situation

Anyway Good Luck @TAbles !!!

JustDestined · May 17, 2014

Any time you bet for value you give an opponent that may be reading you wrong thinking you are weak the opportunity to improve on the turn and river and possibly beat your hand. It comes down to you only having a pair and there were a lot of options for him to improve if he had any piece of the board and only 2 cards to improve your hand without possibly improving his. I would have definitely tried ending the hand on the flop.

eidikos · May 19, 2014

the best play for me is to check call the turn and the river.shoving was a weak play because only with a better hand he will call you.also if you check he could bluff with a hand like qq and give you extra value in the pot

Jacki Burkhart · May 20, 2014

I like your thinking in this hand, but more than anything I like that you are critically thinking about a BETTER way to play a hand that you already won.

here's my thoughts:

Preflop: Based on stack sizes your preflop raise is fine. I personally would have made it about 7,000 but that's pretty close. You WANT to encourage action with your monsters. you would LOVE to get 4 bet!

Flop: I like the bet size of 8k into a 15k pot...mostly because it leaves us a perfect stack size to get it in on the turn. I'm glad you didn't shove the flop. What would be the point of that? you would have to put them on exactly AJ or QQ and then HOPE they get married to it...probably not too likely. If you shove the flop you lose out on a bunch of value from Jx type hands and you only get called by worse. If he has AJ he has 5 outs. If he has AQ he has 3 outs. If he has KJ he has 2 outs and a K would get you his whole stack. I don't see a lot of harm in keeping AJ/KJ/AQ/QQ type hands in the mix. Sometimes for max extraction with our monsters you have to take a little risk. letting your oppoents draw to a maximum of 5 outs for a bad price is a reasonable risk in a tourney.

Turn: yuck! gut reaction is to hate that card. but...wait....do we REALLY hate that card? On the flop, absolutely....but as played what hand is reasonably ahead of us now, on the turn? AJ or maybe A8 and any slow played monsters. that's about it. For most of his range, that card doesn't actually change too much, a Jack would be worse...do you really think he was floating you out of position with 2 overs when you are probably pot committed? I don't.

So I think the panic shove was, kind of a silly play that kills your action when you are ahead and only gets called when you are beat. AJ/A8/88/22 will call you and everyone else will fold. Turning your hand into a bluff right here makes no sense because it's hard for you to trick a better hand into folding. If he has any Ace, he probably has 2 pair or a big Ace....so not folding. By jamming you let a hand like KJ/QQ off the hook.

Here's how I'd think about this hand. Once the flop comes safe and you make your C-bet you have to consider yourself pretty much pot committed. The only card that might scare me into possibly folding on the turn or river would be another Jack. So...if we're probably going to get our stack in at some point unless another Jack comes....then what is our goal in getting our stack in? Value bet. Extraction i.e. we want to get called when we are ahead. How do we make that happen? By checking the turn and letting them think their Jx or QQ is good.

yes, you take some risk by checking the turn...you give a hand like QJ or JT or QQ a free card to beat you. a hand like QJ has 5 outs to beat you with one card to come...it's a risk but it might get you your full double up.

(oh...and I might have panic shoved the turn too!)

Acemeister80 · May 20, 2014

missjacki said:
So I think the panic shove was, kind of a silly play that kills your action when you are ahead and only gets called when you are beat. AJ/A8/88/22 will call you and everyone else will fold. Turning your hand into a bluff right here makes no sense because it's hard for you to trick a better hand into folding. If he has any Ace, he probably has 2 pair or a big Ace....so not folding. By jamming you let a hand like KJ/QQ off the hook.

Here's how I'd think about this hand. Once the flop comes safe and you make your C-bet you have to consider yourself pretty much pot committed. The only card that might scare me into possibly folding on the turn or river would be another Jack. So...if we're probably going to get our stack in at some point unless another Jack comes....then what is our goal in getting our stack in? Value bet. Extraction i.e. we want to get called when we are ahead. How do we make that happen? By checking the turn and letting them think their Jx or QQ is good.

Nice analysis missjacki as always!

The bit ive quoted here kind of sums up my thinking. The only question is whether we are always gonna call a river shove (unless maybe a J comes out).

Checking the turn gives the villain a chance to bluff the river with loads of hands that we beat because he might assume we dont like the ace and can get us to fold for our tournament life.

So if we check the turn on the thinking were gonna call a river shove then were gonna be picking off bluffs more often than we are beat. And my panic shove means we only go to showdown with hands that beat us. So that was why i wanted some feedback on whether a turn check would be more profitable.

Whats your thoughts on if the villain checks the river as well? would a value bet be a good shout or should we be happy to go to showdown and take an already decent-sized pot?

Carl Trooper · May 20, 2014

Acemeister80 said:
Hello Cardschatters!

i was after a bit of advice on a tricky spot that i found myself in a couple of times recently.

Lets give an example....

9-handed MTT mid stages and sitting with around 30K with 500/1000 blinds so 30BB.

You pick up KK on the button and bigger-stacked villain from mid position raises to 2.5K. I think 30BB here is way too big for a shove so a 3-bet is the best option - to around say 6.5K? (any comments on bet sizing would be appreciated).

Lets say villain calls so we have about 15K in the pot.
Flop come out pretty safe for KK, something like 2 8 J.

Villain checks to us. No we have 23.5K behind so maybe a shove is an option but i instead bet 8K (bet sizing?) and get called by villian so the pots up to 31K and i have 15.5K behind.

Then an Ace hits on the turn. Villain still checks to us so whats the best move here? Just for the record, in this case i panic shoved and he folded but i thinks a terrible play. We´re only getting called really by a hand that crushes us.

But if you check the turn then youre basically shouting to your opponent "I dont like that Ace" coz you only have a half pot sized bet behind. Which leaves the door open for them to bluff the river with their bigger stack putting you in a tricky spot for your tournament life.

Im thinking that a check on the turn and check/crying-call on the river is the best option. If you shove the turn youre getting called by better hands and most others fold. If you check the turn and call the river then youre gonna be picking off bluffs as well as the occasional hand that beats you. So youre always gonna go to showdown but checking the turn lets you pick of some bluffs.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated coz iv had this spot a couple of times recently and maybe my troubles are down to my bet sizing!

1) I like the bet sizing of the raise. I think 6.5k is perfect.
2) I also like your bet turn. I probably would be betting 10-12k just to make sure bozo doesn't fish with AQ AK Ax, but 8k is almost as effective. I feel like betting almost pot shows you are committed to the hand and lets him know you are willing to go all the way.

3) The turn here is so tricky. With his check I now assume he has a hand like J10/JQ and is trying to check it down. If you are unlucky enough for him to lead into you, folding is probably the best bet. I think in my position its check 50% of the time and bet/shove 50%. I guess if you were to fire again, another 8k might suffice. He jams, you can fold assuming he does have Ax. If he calls hopefully can check/check river.

X at Tripaces · May 20, 2014

a shove may be a bit risky here... I would rather give a pot sized raise here, still giving me fold equity if he does shove... He obviously isnt going to come over the top unless he has that ace, or a set that he feels you have an ace you wont get away from. The panic shove here worked for you, but could have put you on the rail if he called your bet on flop with ak, (dont know if the flop was rainbow or and flush possibilities out there as well he could have been possibly chasing..)

DonkeyH3AD · May 20, 2014

Personally I think 3 bet on pre flop was somewhat weak.
I would have went to say around 8.5k or 9k and showed some power strength.
Then on flop I would have jammed and if villian had A/j or something similar would have snap called.
The ace scared them as much as it scared you.

wanted write exactly the same smll chance villian will try to bluff You on turn or river
if he/she got AK probobly fold it on floop or shove bet definitly not call I cannot imagine play A high by strong 3 bet preflop on that spot
I think good way is to check turn and small bet river

pallav_pro · May 21, 2014

I think your betting is pretty good. You cannot do anything about your opponent if he calls you with AQ or AK and then checks to you on the turn. But you should have added 2-3k more on your bet on the flop.
You have to take risk but continous betting is required,

nykaktak · May 21, 2014

Yes very much it isn't pleasant to see it an ace on a sloe, after all the opponent on big blind god to balance with A10 A8s and so on, it seems to me in such situation it is all the same necessary to continue to put on a sloe, after all if to pass the auction the opponent can rely in a half of bank and what to do then! ?

Jacki Burkhart · May 21, 2014

Acemeister80 said:
Nice analysis missjacki as always!

The bit ive quoted here kind of sums up my thinking. The only question is whether we are always gonna call a river shove (unless maybe a J comes out).

Checking the turn gives the villain a chance to bluff the river with loads of hands that we beat because he might assume we dont like the ace and can get us to fold for our tournament life.

So if we check the turn on the thinking were gonna call a river shove then were gonna be picking off bluffs more often than we are beat. And my panic shove means we only go to showdown with hands that beat us. So that was why i wanted some feedback on whether a turn check would be more profitable.

Whats your thoughts on if the villain checks the river as well? would a value bet be a good shout or should we be happy to go to showdown and take an already decent-sized pot?

Yes, I will always call a river shove, unless a J comes. calling the river bet was the point in checking the turn...so once you make a plan you have to keep the courage of your convictions.

and what if he checks to you on the river? You'll value shove almost any river card except a J and possibly a Q. The shove is the best bet size because it looks like you want them to fold.

JPoling · May 21, 2014

As what eveveryone else said bigger 3-bet. But for sure on the flop you should of jammed. I mean really there was no other bet I could see doing on that flop when 15K is in pot and have 23K backing. Half pot is too small on that board. Then anything more basically already puts you pot-commited. So yea I would of jammed on flop.

tothbopo · May 22, 2014

missjacki said:
I like your thinking in this hand, but more than anything I like that you are critically thinking about a BETTER way to play a hand that you already won.

here's my thoughts:

Preflop: Based on stack sizes your preflop raise is fine. I personally would have made it about 7,000 but that's pretty close. You WANT to encourage action with your monsters. you would LOVE to get 4 bet!

Flop: I like the bet size of 8k into a 15k pot...mostly because it leaves us a perfect stack size to get it in on the turn. I'm glad you didn't shove the flop. What would be the point of that? you would have to put them on exactly AJ or QQ and then HOPE they get married to it...probably not too likely. If you shove the flop you lose out on a bunch of value from Jx type hands and you only get called by worse. If he has AJ he has 5 outs. If he has AQ he has 3 outs. If he has KJ he has 2 outs and a K would get you his whole stack. I don't see a lot of harm in keeping AJ/KJ/AQ/QQ type hands in the mix. Sometimes for max extraction with our monsters you have to take a little risk. letting your oppoents draw to a maximum of 5 outs for a bad price is a reasonable risk in a tourney.

Turn: yuck! gut reaction is to hate that card. but...wait....do we REALLY hate that card? On the flop, absolutely....but as played what hand is reasonably ahead of us now, on the turn? AJ or maybe A8 and any slow played monsters. that's about it. For most of his range, that card doesn't actually change too much, a Jack would be worse...do you really think he was floating you out of position with 2 overs when you are probably pot committed? I don't.

So I think the panic shove was, kind of a silly play that kills your action when you are ahead and only gets called when you are beat. AJ/A8/88/22 will call you and everyone else will fold. Turning your hand into a bluff right here makes no sense because it's hard for you to trick a better hand into folding. If he has any Ace, he probably has 2 pair or a big Ace....so not folding. By jamming you let a hand like KJ/QQ off the hook.

Here's how I'd think about this hand. Once the flop comes safe and you make your C-bet you have to consider yourself pretty much pot committed. The only card that might scare me into possibly folding on the turn or river would be another Jack. So...if we're probably going to get our stack in at some point unless another Jack comes....then what is our goal in getting our stack in? Value bet. Extraction i.e. we want to get called when we are ahead. How do we make that happen? By checking the turn and letting them think their Jx or QQ is good.

yes, you take some risk by checking the turn...you give a hand like QJ or JT or QQ a free card to beat you. a hand like QJ has 5 outs to beat you with one card to come...it's a risk but it might get you your full double up.

(oh...and I might have panic shoved the turn too!)

Waow you are getting al the way around the hand. I learn by every word you write.

I had a very difficult time before it maked sense. But you made my brain climb two or three steps up.

No doubt playing this hand as I tried severel times. I am scared to hell for that ace on the table. Will it show up or not and if it does is there and ace in the opponants hand.

Now you make me understand this out thing and I know its not just a question about aces.

In this situation I would have 4betted to see reaktion and then proberbly folded by any raise.

Pocket Kings with Ace on the turn

Acemeister80

Rock Star

mrbiggles

Enthusiast

Colbefc

Legend

thatgreekdude

Legend

newbie in training

Legend

Acemeister80

Rock Star

Arjonius

Legend

left52side

Legend

Acemeister80

Rock Star

Arjonius

Legend

hffjd2000

Legend

T0mmmi

Rock Star

JustDestined

Enthusiast

eidikos

Visionary

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

Acemeister80

Rock Star

Carl Trooper

Degenerate Idiot

X at Tripaces

Enthusiast

DonkeyH3AD

Visionary

pallav_pro

Rising Star

nykaktak

Rock Star

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

JPoling

Visionary

tothbopo

Legend

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site