Please explain push-fold mode

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pat3392

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I don't know when i should go into this mode. Some say 10 blinds, others 13. I did some math and worked out that at 5 blinds if you call you are actually losing on average, and that's assuming you will win every time you hit! Most places In play at I am the only one who goes all in when I get short. Other players seem to wait for some decent cards or call to see where they're at instead(if they're in the small blind for example)

I am starting to question the usefullness of push-fold mode, as I get into a lot of trouble doing it. It just is so risky. When Should I push-fold?

Just the other night, one player got to the final table with 2 blinds. She didn't make any moves as she wasn't getting anything. When she sat down she was UTG. She got J2 and I would have went all in, thinking that If I don't go all in now I will have to go all in on the blind, where I would probably have a worse hand. If I did my move, I would have ran into decent cards and bust. The next move she had crap cards, like 47 or something. Only one player called and she checked, whereas I might of went all in, thinking that I really needed to chip up. The flop came and she paired, her opponent checked she went all in and he folded. 10 minutes later she somehow won the damn tournament. She said she got A8 twice in a row and went all in and doubled up.

So, is playing a more passive game better until I get decent cards for a push?

Another thing, if I pushed when I had 10 blinds everyone would just fold, so I would make little money on my decent hands. If I just sit back and only play 1 out every 15 hands or something, and those hands I would be an all in, I would lose money overall anyway(to the blinds), unless someone decided to call and I holded up.

By the way, I play at lots of turbo tournaments, where most players have are extremely short stacked (15 blinds is average around half way through the tournament)
 
cjatud2012

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I don't know when i should go into this mode. Some say 10 blinds, others 13. I did some math and worked out that at 5 blinds if you call you are actually losing on average, and that's assuming you will win every time you hit! Most places In play at I am the only one who goes all in when I get short. Other players seem to wait for some decent cards or call to see where they're at instead(if they're in the small blind for example)

I am starting to question the usefullness of push-fold mode, as I get into a lot of trouble doing it. It just is so risky. When Should I push-fold?

Just the other night, one player got to the final table with 2 blinds. She didn't make any moves as she wasn't getting anything. When she sat down she was UTG. She got J2 and I would have went all in, thinking that If I don't go all in now I will have to go all in on the blind, where I would probably have a worse hand. If I did my move, I would have ran into decent cards and bust. The next move she had crap cards, like 47 or something. Only one player called and she checked, whereas I might of went all in, thinking that I really needed to chip up. The flop came and she paired, her opponent checked she went all in and he folded. 10 minutes later she somehow won the damn tournament. She said she got A8 twice in a row and went all in and doubled up.

So, is playing a more passive game better until I get decent cards for a push?

Another thing, if I pushed when I had 10 blinds everyone would just fold, so I would make little money on my decent hands. If I just sit back and only play 1 out every 15 hands or something, and those hands I would be an all in, I would lose money overall anyway(to the blinds), unless someone decided to call and I holded up.

By the way, I play at lots of turbo tournaments, where most players have are extremely short stacked (15 blinds is average around half way through the tournament)

Generally, if I'm at 10 BB's or less, if I plan on raising, I am raising all-in. This is because, if someone 3-bets, we're getting the odds to call anyway, so we should shove ourselves and maximize our fold equity. With 3-7 BB's, we should be looking to widen our shoving range in the SB, and BTN. We can include CO in this if the players behind us are tight. We NEVER want to get below 3 BB's. If you think about it, 3 BB's is a standard raise, and with less than this, we really have no fold equity.

edit: this advice changes when antes are introduced. I wrote this thinking of SNG's, where antes are not as important.
We now should be thinking of our stack in terms of M, not in BB's. Check this post out for more info on M: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/ever-wondered-what-m-172174/

Waiting for a decent hand is not really a good strategy. For example, say I have 2 BB's and get AK on the button. If I shove and the SB folds, the BB is getting 3.5:1 odds to call. A hand like 72o actually has 32% equity, or 2.1:1 win odds, so his call is extremely justified in this spot. We do not want to let this happen to ourselves, so I'd rather push 5 BB's on the button with any two cards than put myself in that position.

If we push with our 10 BB stack and no one calls, that's actually a good result for us. Stealing the blinds increases our stack by 15%, which is actually a large amount. Don't underestimate how important this is.

In turbos, even though the average stack:blinds ratio is typically smaller, our strategy will mostly stay the same. If we have 10 BB's or less and we want to raise, we will raise all-in. We can widen our shoving range with 3-5 BB's.
 
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The_Pup

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I agree with the previous post that if I want to raise then I am all in with 10BB. Unless we've got AA a fold from those after us and any limpers will do just fine. What we don't want is to find ourselves holding 77 with two opponents and an AKT flop. Our flop bet here is not going to scare one villain with Ax and the other with a strong draw.

It may seem that you are not getting value for your AKs if you go all in PF and just get the blinds and antes. But the play has has value not just in the chips you pick up (which buys a little breathing space) but by showing the table you are not afraid to get your chips in - for example, you are less likely to have your blinds stolen if it appears you are prepared to gamble.

The level at which you shove ATC will depend on too many circumstances to go into now. But if you are down to 4 or 5 BB you need a huge slice of luck to stay in the tourney - you are not going to scare anyone so you need the cards to fall for you.
 
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volpereira

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I agree with the first answer.

With 10BB is a good time to push. First off all, you don't give the correct pot odds to call. Second: If U double up, U are back in the game in just one hand.
 
BeaverTrump

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If you have 8-100 BB you can raise on batton or CO, but in another position you must play all-in or fold, because any raise on preflop it is all-in on flop)))
 
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You should often go into push or fold with about 10 big blinds or so, because if you are going to limp in and somebody raises you, your pretty much all the way in anyways. So it's better to shove to make yourself look stronger.
 
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Del Sol Si

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10 big blinds isn't always shove ATC. Idk when that started becoming standard with online poker. Now don't get me wrong, blinding your stack down is the worst thing possible but shoving ATC once you hit 10BB is incorrect imo.

And second stop using big blinds as your count, use tournament M. If you don't know what tourney M is then PM me and I'll try to explain it the best I can.
 
SavagePenguin

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Push/Fold Mode: You are in push/fold mode when you have enough chips to still hurt people if they call (IE, you still have good fold equity), but opening and then having to fold to a re-raise one or two more times will decrease your stack enough that you lose your good fold equity because people will call you light.

This is also the point *before* doubling up won't be a significant help. That is, if you shove with 5k and are called as a 40:60 underdog, when you get lucky you have 10k+ chips which is probably enough to give you breathing room to make moves. But if you wait until you have 1.5k chips and shove when you are a 60:40 favorite you only have 3k+ chips, which probably means you are still in trouble. (40% equity in a 10k pot is better than 60% equity in a 3k pot, and chips are power)
 
pifan

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I agree with what SP said.

You need to be thinking of your M ratio instead of thinking in terms of Big Blinds. All the M ratio is how many orbits your stack can withstand at the current blind level.

If the blinds were 300, 150 and ante of 25 and you were sitting at a 9 handed table, it would cost you 675 per orbit. So therefore to have an M of 10 you would need 6750 chips. Typically we should be push fold when our M reaches 10. The reason for this is once we see a flop due to the exponential growth of the pot on every street we don't have any room to play poker with.

In most cases when our M is 10 we have fold equity on every one at the table and we are looking for situations where there are medium stacks in the blinds where we can open shove a wider range to collect blinds and antes which will increase our M ratio. By open shoving with a wider range we will eventually get called wider by opponents which we create situations where we shove AK and get called by Ax hands.

No one is saying push/fold mode means shoving any 2 cards, hopefully by keeping above an M of 10 we avoid having to shove any two cards.
 
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et1961

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but what about position?

I aggree with the 10 BB all-in move. But position also plays a big part to me. In beginning to middle position I will play a fewer selection of starting hands knowing that there are more players to react after my raise than in later position. THe more plyers that call your raise the more possibilities you have of getting beat.
 
pifan

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I aggree with the 10 BB all-in move. But position also plays a big part to me. In beginning to middle position I will play a fewer selection of starting hands knowing that there are more players to react after my raise than in later position. THe more plyers that call your raise the more possibilities you have of getting beat.

Not to be mean but did you read the couple of posts above you should be looking at your M value, not your BB and once you push position does not matter, you are looking to steal the blinds, or get a caller and double up, either is fine there.

If you to let yourself get to 10 bb is usually too late you don't have enough fold equity. The range you are going to use in shove /fold mode with a M of 10 you can shove from any position. you need to double up at this point in the tournament.

You do have time to be a little selective on the range of hands you shove with for a while with a M of 10, but you have to shove/fold no limping ,min raising, the reason being you do not have enough chips to play post flop. So pick a hand and shove with it. whatever the result you made the right move there.

And yes position matters some, less players to act after you is always better, but i feel that whatever two cards I will shove with at a M of 10, I will shove from any position.
 
blueskies

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P { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } BODY { SCROLLBAR-ARROW-COLOR: #3f52b8; SCROLLBAR-DARKSHADOW-COLOR: #fafafa; SCROLLBAR-BASE-COLOR: #f7f7f7; SCROLLBAR-HIGHLIGHT-COLOR: #cecfce; SCROLLBAR-TRACK-COLOR: #fffbff } SPAN#misspelled { PADDING-BOTTOM: 1px; BACKGROUND: url(8.1.393.1/themes/base/squiggly.gif) repeat-x 50% bottom } It depends on whether I am already in the money. If I am just on the bubble. I wait unless I have QQ/AK or better. And if I am all but assured of making it in the money if I just wait out a hand or two, I'll only shove with KK/AA.

If that's not in consideration, I either just shove or fold. If you just call, the big stackers will bully you around, and you either have to fold or call with nothing unless you hit on the flop. Might as well get it all in preflop while likely the favorite.

Once the table empties out and blinds climb, from late position it's time to take a gamble with even marginal hands.

The other day, on the final table at carbon poker, with 6 ppl left I was on BB with only 3-4 bbs left (not counting the forced bet), and the sb opened raised me to 3xbb. I was looking at K3, definitely a crappy hand, but I felt like he was not that strong as he would be raising with a lot of hands there, and I shoved it. Turned out he had QJ. But he hit a J on the turn and I lost in 6th place. Not a great hand to shove with, but it was a chance to get in there headsup guaranteed. There was no guarantee I would have a chance to get in there heads up possibly ahead.

Even with AA or KK, if going in there 3 way, you're still only about 50%.
 
NineLions

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Push/fold is not all about whether you're going to get beat. That's one of the problems people often have with it.


Push/fold is about 1) not having enough chips to raise and fold to a re-raise, or to raise and continuation bet the flop and then have to fold. If you're not this short, then just raise. You don't need to go into push/fold mode (unless the players behind you are short and should themselves be in this mode). But it's silly to see someone with 7 blinds left make a min-raise and then watch them fold to a re-raise.

2) fold equity, where your opponents are afraid of losing their own chips and your hand could be a monster or a mediocre hand, but they can't risk calling because they're short as well.

3) the value of the pot being sufficient that you need those chips to continue to play.


There's a reason that Full Tilt created the super turbos with 300 chips and the blinds at 15/30; it puts you automatically in push/fold mode right at the start.
 
pifan

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The other day, on the final table at carbon poker, with 6 ppl left I was on BB with only 3-4 bbs left (not counting the forced bet), and the sb opened raised me to 3xbb. I was looking at K3, definitely a crappy hand, but I felt like he was not that strong as he would be raising with a lot of hands there, and I shoved it. Turned out he had QJ. But he hit a J on the turn and I lost in 6th place. Not a great hand to shove with, but it was a chance to get in there headsup guaranteed. There was no guarantee I would have a chance to get in there heads up possibly ahead.

You should have been shoving long before this point, you have waited way too long. the only time you should be that short is if you were all in and lost to a stack slightly smaller than yours and you had 3 to 4 bb left. you automatically should be looking for a hand to shove with at a M of ten quit thinking in terms of bb.get your chips in the middle when you have a chance to do some good with them.
 
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billyth3kid

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theres no exact number its more of a range... when your low stake (under 15 BB) you know that your limited to the moves you can make... Its hard to raise 3 times the blinds and fold or c bet and fold to a reraises, cause your losing almost half your stack.... you simply do not have enough of a stack size to play solid deepstack poker
 
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