Playing To Win vs Playing Not To lose

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The Nuder

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I was in a tournament a while back and an argument broke out between two of the players at my table. One of them was playing loose and aggressive and the other tight. I watched for a bit and commented that the difference was that one of them was playing to win and the other was playing not to lose.

On face value the same objective but at a behavioural level very different. The guy I said was playing to win did in fact go on to win the tournament. Now this is only one occasion but his style won out.

In any given context most people are inclined towards goals or away from consequences. That is, their focus of attention is influenced, at a level out of conscious awareness, by the prospect of achieving a goal or alternatively the prospect of failure. One or the other - for most people. This has inevitable consequences on choices. Whether one focus of attention is better than another is governed by context - sometimes we need to be aware of potential problems in order to avoid them sometimes we need to be totally goal focused. Most times in fact we need both - but we're inclined towards one and somewhat blind to the other.

In poker I tend to focus on the prospect of losing my chips with a bad call. So I can sit tight in a tournament and I have frequently surrendered a chip leader position and not made it to final table because all around me are doubling up and doubling up and then my huge stack is suddenly not so huge. I've won over a dozen tournaments online, and my biggest cash was $580 so it's not all bad. But I think I would have won more if I'd developed the goal oriented killer instinct. My jaw drops open when I've folded JJ and see that two people have bet large on 9's or 7's.

Ultimately it ends up the same kill or be killed. But we make better decisions when we're in a strong position. Choice is better than no choice. Obviously poker is a learned game and even people who are naturally inclined to focus on the goal of winning will have learned to quickly assess risk. But they will still be inclined towards the win rather than avoiding the loss.

This is a longer post than I thought when I started typing. I wanted to be clear that I'm talking about the below conscious influences on decision making - conscious awareness comes after our choices have already been made - unless we learn to intervene.

So I'd really like to hear from anyone who considers they are strongly goal oriented - what they are focused on / thinking when they make a big call or a large raise. Maybe even anyone who wishes they were a little more risk averse.
 
steveiam

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I think a lot of it comes down to people's personality's. some people are naturally aggressive and some are not and i think their poker style will reflect this.Aggression will ultimately determine whether you are going to win or not.

And wining a few flips as well.
 
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On the final table of a small mtt I will decide whether I want to play aggressively or maintain my stack and wait for a spot and move up a few places,

If the table is overly aggressive I'd rather wait for spots since accumalating chips isn't too much of problem.

I'd rather move up one place personally than risk it all on a toss ''if its an mtt' but I always set my sights on 1st and will get my chips in towards the end if im in like 4th position when the 2 or 3 bigger stacks attempt to steal, since they have to give me credit, and in addition to that 90% of the time you will get a spot adventually to take a toss
 
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The Nuder

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I'd rather move up one place personally than risk it all on a toss ''if its an mtt' but I always set my sights on 1st and will get my chips in towards the end if im in like 4th position when the 2 or 3 bigger stacks attempt to steal, since they have to give me credit, and in addition to that 90% of the time you will get a spot adventually to take a toss

Setting sights on 1st is interesting. For the bulk of a tournament I'll track the bottom end of the players in the lobby view. I'll slide the scroller up as they get eliminated and provided I'm not in sight of elimination and within touching distance of a prize I don't really worry too much.

The trouble is in a tournament where 120 get paid you typically have to final table for it to be worthwhile. My strategy is not great for this. I have experimented with a goal oriented strategy keeping the list of top players in view and playing to get into that view. And my style of play does change. But I've not tried consistently enough to weigh up performance.

When I get to final table I'm a pretty good scrapper and usually do OK. I think my strategy works better when there are only a few players left and you can see the entire game in front of you. bugt it's getting to that point is where I need a shift of focus.
 
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Everyone,s got different ideas of what winning is.If I make it into the money I've won.So I try to make the most money i can ,If i go into the final table in last place I'm super aggressive ,if someone is under me I'm folding until there gone,I'VE seen to many small stacks work there way up to 4th or 5th just by folding.
 
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It depends of the player. Lets talk about one of the best examples of a poker player. Luca Pagano. He´s well known at the EPT circuit. He made a lot of cashes but he never win any EPT. Why? Probably because he´s too solid. He only want to cash, only play not to lose, and not to win. The big question is: If he played to win, would he made so many cashes? Probably not. Once again depends of mentality of the player. Some just want to cash, others just to win.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Setting sights on 1st is interesting. For the bulk of a tournament I'll track the bottom end of the players in the lobby view. I'll slide the scroller up as they get eliminated and provided I'm not in sight of elimination and within touching distance of a prize I don't really worry too much.
The trouble is in a tournament where 120 get paid you typically have to final table for it to be worthwhile. My strategy is not great for this. I have experimented with a goal oriented strategy keeping the list of top players in view and playing to get into that view. And my style of play does change. But I've not tried consistently enough to weigh up performance.
When I get to final table I'm a pretty good scrapper and usually do OK. I think my strategy works better when there are only a few players left and you can see the entire game in front of you. bugt it's getting to that point is where I need a shift of focus.

This is a great thread....well timed as I have been working on this very skill lately.

I, too have focused on "not losing" for a long time...too long. I have a 30% cash rate in tourneys...yet I don't turn much of a profit. Too many min cashes. I'm trying to switch my internal conversation and it's actually harder than it sounds.

the comment above from Nuder in interesting about which players you track in the lobby view....for years I have also tracked the bottom level of players, very interested in how quickly people were getting eliminated. Without even realizing I was doing it, I have started tracking the top chip stacks. Until the Nuder just typed it, I wasn't even aware I had made that shift, but actually I am finding myself more and more frequently in that top chip stack section. Also interesting, I am finding myself as a chip leader, then losing a big hand and being in the middle of the pack, and then eventually being a chip leader again. My stack goes thru many more ups and downs than it used to, and I cash less frequently now, but I cash for more....
 
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ferdi332

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I was in a tournament a while back and an argument broke out between two of the players at my table. One of them was playing loose and aggressive and the other tight. I watched for a bit and commented that the difference was that one of them was playing to win and the other was playing not to lose.

On face value the same objective but at a behavioural level very different. The guy I said was playing to win did in fact go on to win the tournament. Now this is only one occasion but his style won out.


In any given context most people are inclined towards goals or away from consequences. That is, their focus of attention is influenced, at a level out of conscious awareness, by the prospect of achieving a goal or alternatively the prospect of failure. One or the other - for most people. This has inevitable consequences on choices. Whether one focus of attention is better than another is governed by context - sometimes we need to be aware of potential problems in order to avoid them sometimes we need to be totally goal focused. Most times in fact we need both - but we're inclined towards one and somewhat blind to the other.

In poker I tend to focus on the prospect of losing my chips with a bad call. So I can sit tight in a tournament and I have frequently surrendered a chip leader position and not made it to final table because all around me are doubling up and doubling up and then my huge stack is suddenly not so huge. I've won over a dozen tournaments online, and my biggest cash was $580 so it's not all bad. But I think I would have won more if I'd developed the goal oriented killer instinct. My jaw drops open when I've folded JJ and see that two people have bet large on 9's or 7's.

Ultimately it ends up the same kill or be killed. But we make better decisions when we're in a strong position. Choice is better than no choice. Obviously poker is a learned game and even people who are naturally inclined to focus on the goal of winning will have learned to quickly assess risk. But they will still be inclined towards the win rather than avoiding the loss.

This is a longer post than I thought when I started typing. I wanted to be clear that I'm talking about the below conscious influences on decision making - conscious awareness comes after our choices have already been made - unless we learn to intervene.

So I'd really like to hear from anyone who considers they are strongly goal oriented - what they are focused on / thinking when they make a big call or a large raise. Maybe even anyone who wishes they were a little more risk averse.
I mus agree with you on the above , I tend to be in the same situation at times . I think if you are determined and focused . Play the game you always play . Tide agresive you will make it most of the time .
I see how ge just to buys rebuy all the time at tourneys . Gamble to double up or triple up even . Tgey sometimes spend so much they dont even know that they must come 5th plac
 
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The Nuder

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I'm trying to switch my internal conversation and it's actually harder than it sounds.
This is because conscious awareness comes after unconscious - which is driven by habitual thought processes. If you set a strong congruent intention before and during play it will be easier - letting yourself know what you want to focus on instead is critical.

I am finding myself more and more frequently in that top chip stack section. Also interesting, I am finding myself as a chip leader, then losing a big hand and being in the middle of the pack, and then eventually being a chip leader again. My stack goes thru many more ups and downs than it used to, and I cash less frequently now, but I cash for more....
This is why I want to hear from some naturally goal oriented players - what are they focusing on - where is their awareness naturally drawn during a game - what are they convinced by when they are making plays etc. If we changed 3 or 4 things how much of a shift might that create - but what are the 3 or 4 things...

Come on win focused people tell us what you're thinking about when you play...
 
Arjonius

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It's not a binary situation where the only possibilities are playing to win and playing not to lose. It would be more accurate to say something like playing to maximize your EV.

In general, you'll win more money by cashing less often provided you cash high somewhat more often. However, this assumes you'll be in similar situations often enough to balance out in your favor.
 
dj11

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Play to win, play not to lose......

|.......................|..........................|..x......................|........................|
Don't lose..................................................................................Win it.

I see that as a sliding scale that ebbs and flows during the course of a tourney. The scale shrinks as the tourney progresses, and eventually does end up as a binary option (aka HU).

Most of the time I prefer to play not to lose (early). Somewhere ITM, I realize that I can win it, and a subtle change occurs, hard if not impossible to describe. Attention increases, my thoughts coalesce and I get a mental picture of the dynamics at a final table. I realize that each villain is trying to get something similar and I allow them to act against each other. I help them bust out each other when I can.
 
rifflemao

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So I'd really like to hear from anyone who considers they are strongly goal oriented - what they are focused on / thinking when they make a big call or a large raise. Maybe even anyone who wishes they were a little more risk averse.

My goal is the same every time: get to the final table with a lot of chips. I set-mine and take shots early on, then tighten up around 30bb. If I manage to get a big stack and am on a mostly passive table, I raise and shove a fairly wide range to pick up fold equity.

If I'm faced with a big call, I try to think about what odds the pot is giving me, and what kind of range the villain is shoving, and the equity my hand has against his range.

One of my weaknesses is playing too aggressive near the bubble when I have a short stack. I tend to shove hands that are fine if you have a big stack, but are marginal for short stacks. It's a leak that I'm working on by taking more time to think about the situation.

The guy who was complaining about the winner's aggression probably has no clue how important fold equity is to building a stack, so he hangs back and hopes for a big hand. Then he doesn't get paid off much because everyone knows he's a tight player and is raising with the top 5% of his range.

He gets pissed off and calls people "bully" etc, when in reality the aggressor is just playing in a standard\recommended way- frequently raising in late pos, punishing limpers, abusing the bubble etc.

There is a great quote by Amir Vahedi regarding tournaments:

In order to live, you must be willing to die.

And another well-known proverb:

Audentes fortuna iuuat
 
Ian the Fish

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I think it is critical not to forget that you must pick your spots when to be aggressive, and when to be passive. That one of my mistakes when I first started playing, but a learning experience nontheless.

Regarding the mindset - personally I come to a tournament making a promiss to myself that I will at the very least cash in, and most of the time I do. Now, what assures me that I can go much higher than just 'cashing in' is when I make several critical plays / reads. To me there is no greater feeling, when I read someone as weak, and let them just blow off all their chips on a bluff. This boosts my confidence level sky high, convincing myself that I'm on top of my game and that I can win the tournament.

Also, more in-depth, when have a bit above the average stack, say, I am 4th / 9 at the final table, I tend to also (as someone mentioned previously) target the chiplead, as being my biggest potential sponsor, but also additionally I love to frequently steal blinds from those, who are low on chips.
 
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It's not a binary situation where the only possibilities are playing to win and playing not to lose. It would be more accurate to say something like playing to maximize your EV.
I know, these traits (many more not just this one) tend to be context dependant - which is why you behave differently in one context to another. Poker could be viewed as a global context but it can be broken down into a series of sub-contexts in which people will strategise differently from one sub-context to the next. Overall most people will still tilt one way or another towards victory or away from loss. And it will have a profound impact on how they play.

My observation from profiling poeple's behaviour over the last decade is that in competitive environments people who are goal focused tend to do better not just in the long run but right from the get go. This may sound obvious - but specifically how they are being goal focused isn't. I've made a shift over the last week in freerolls and it was just too much, I came nowhere. As soon as I went back to supertight I was back in the prizes.

Most of the time I prefer to play not to lose (early). Somewhere ITM, I realize that I can win it, and a subtle change occurs, hard if not impossible to describe. Attention increases, my thoughts coalesce and I get a mental picture of the dynamics at a final table. I realize that each villain is trying to get something similar and I allow them to act against each other. I help them bust out each other when I can.
It's hard to describe because it's a change in state - which can't be adequately described with words. If you can identify what precedes it - the trigger/s you could trigger it at will (what comes before the image). Not that you necessarily would want to. But would be interesting to know what it is...

I think I get something similar and:

There is a great quote by Amir Vahedi regarding tournaments:

In order to live, you must be willing to die.
kind of sums up the feeling. I've usually battled to get to a certain stage and then there's this realisation that making all the right moves will not necessarily result in a win so there are no right moves there are just moves which will work or wont.

But that kind of needs balancing with a big, yet to be developed, helping of poker skill.Which is a different thread.
 
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