Is playing SnG messing with my MTT?

In July, I was dominating the CC freerolls. I know a large part was luck, but since I started spending some of that free money on SnG STT, I haven't been effective at all in MTTs.

I started playing 6 man, single table, 5 minute blind SnGs on the 8th, and started profiting in them on the 11th. If you've played these, you know how they play, fast and aggressive. I have played 43 of these over the past few days with a 42% cash rate and about $6.00 in profit. I play them mostly one, sometimes two at a time.

Since I started playing SnGs, I have not done well in the CC freerolls or in any other MTT I've tried. I like the Hyper and Turbo style, because they play much like the ITM section of an MTT (very like the final table). But if I keep playing these, I don't think I'll ever make it back to tourney ITM.

I can't leave the CC Freerolls, they are the highlight of my day. But should I shift to only MTTs, or will I be able to separate the two eventually (hopefully before I lose my Leaderboard lead)?

tl:dr I love STT Hyper Sng, but it is damaging my MTT play. What should I do?

So you were regularly cashing in MTTs until you started playing SNGs five days ago? This is a super small sample size and prolly more coincidental than consequential. You admitted in your own progress thread that you were running good, so unless a longer pattern emerges, I'd just chalk it up to variance.

swerdnase said:

So you were regularly cashing in MTTs until you started playing SNGs five days ago? This is a super small sample size and prolly more coincidental than consequential. You admitted in your own progress thread that you were running good, so unless a longer pattern emerges, I'd just chalk it up to variance.

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You are probably right. We all like to progress, to continue to learn and get better. Maybe I need to revisit Collin and Katie's course. A couple days of cramming never hurt.

I have played about 20 micro and free MTTs in the past four days, and only cashed once. Probably variance, but still frustrating as all get out. Thanks.

There is some argument for not mixing up to many game types and having to adjust all the time. It does lead to some danger of becoming "a jack of all trades but a master of none". But that being said MTTs and STTs are not massively different games, and at the micro level you dont need to play 100% perfect to win.

So I dont see the need to become all that specialised at this point. The micros is also about trying different formats to find your personal preference. And even if you decide to go with MTTs, you most likely dont always have time for them. So why not then practice with some STTs, if for instance you only have 2 hours to play.

And how many CC freerolls did you play over those 5 days? Even if you play on different sites, probably no more than 10, and its completely normal to not cash 10 MTTs in a row. I think, my "record" is almost 30. So as said by previous poster, this is just meaningless short term variance

fundiver199 said:

There is some argument for not mixing up to many game types and having to adjust all the time. It does lead to some danger of becoming "a jack of all trades but a master of none". But that being said MTTs and STTs are not massively different games, and at the micro level you dont need to play 100% perfect to win.

So I dont see the need to become all that specialised at this point. The micros is also about trying different formats to find your personal preference. And even if you decide to go with MTTs, you most likely dont always have time for them. So why not then practice with some STTs, if for instance you only have 2 hours to play.

And how many CC freerolls did you play over those 5 days? Even if you play on different sites, probably no more than 10, and its completely normal to not cash 10 MTTs in a row. I think, my "record" is almost 30. So as said by previous poster, this is just meaningless short term variance

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I figured out my win/loss in STT and MTT in past four days.

MTT
games - 32
spent - $19.15
earned - $3.20
% ITM - 3% (1)

STT 6 man
games - 42
spent - $72.60
earned - $102.82
% ITM - 47% (20)

Most of the MTT are little $0.55 games on ACR and freerolls, with a few larger stake games thrown in. One single ITM was a first place in a 55 cent game.

My goal in playing online poker is to have fun. Making money is fun. Losing, not so much. I think your post has made me realize that I need to drop the $0.55 and micro games and limit my play to SnGs and freerolls, with maybe a single larger stake MTT per week. I believe two formats, much like two simultaneous games, is my limit. Thanks!

MTT and SNG are "brothers". MTT final table is the same like SnG. In SnG STT you have heavy ICM from the begining. You must play tight. In MTT early stage you must play loose. Looser than in cash games. Actually many SNG players after 3-4 years start to play MTT. Because at $20-$30 there are many regs, little or zero edge.

U must realize the difference between STT and MTT. The ICM...SnG is part from MTT. The good MTT players have more skills than the good SnG players. This is just an "evolution". For MTT you must have bigger roll. You can play SnG and then MTT. You can play SnG + MTT. You can play freerolls, then SnG, then MTT.

Keep going. I saw some of your posts. You have a potential.

GL...

UkoChebuko said:

MTT and SNG are "brothers". MTT final table is the same like SnG. In SnG STT you have heavy ICM from the begining. You must play tight. In MTT early stage you must play loose. Looser than in cash games. Actually many SNG players after 3-4 years start to play MTT. Because at $20-$30 there are many regs, little or zero edge.

U must realize the difference between STT and MTT. The ICM...SnG is part from MTT. The good MTT players have more skills than the good SnG players. This is just an "evolution". For MTT you must have bigger roll. You can play SnG and then MTT. You can play SnG + MTT. You can play freerolls, then SnG, then MTT.

Keep going. I saw some of your posts. You have a potential.

GL...

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Thank you. I agree with your analysis on the relationship between STT and MTT, especially at the final stages. I know I need to improve my understanding of ICM. I haven't really begun to understand the reverse implied range merge against a large stack to pot ratio. I think I need to focus my study on ICM to give me a better understanding of this important aspect of the game.

These are very similar disciplines in poker, so I think it is unlikely that they will have a strong impact on each other !!! But it's up to you !!!

I figured out what I'm doing wrong after I got knocked out of the CC freeroll on ACR and as I was losing chips in the CC freeroll on BOL. I caught myself in like six hands out of seven in a row, and not one of the hands was profitable from the position I was playing it. I figured out I was playing cards "just because they might..."

Back to fundamentals for me.

I am fully confident that sng can't be harmful to mtt players. I think it's right when sng complements your main game. Single-table sng is a great workout for the final table, I think. If you consider a multi-head sng, it's a great late-stage training opportunity for a large multi-hour MTT, I find it very similar for me. Why do you make mistakes in sng? did you review your game? how and why did you play a particular hand? why did you lose? where you made a mistake.

The question is very complex, but I think sng can not be a bad solution for playing together with MTT. My opinion they are very similar for the game.

LFC_yllnwa said:

I am fully confident that sng can't be harmful to mtt players. I think it's right when sng complements your main game. Single-table sng is a great workout for the final table, I think. If you consider a multi-head sng, it's a great late-stage training opportunity for a large multi-hour MTT, I find it very similar for me. Why do you make mistakes in sng? did you review your game? how and why did you play a particular hand? why did you lose? where you made a mistake.

The question is very complex, but I think sng can not be a bad solution for playing together with MTT. My opinion they are very similar for the game.

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I understand and agree completely with what you say.

My problem was my play at the beginning of MTT. Once I started playing (and doing well at) SnGs, I transferred some of that "win now" aggression into the early stage of tournaments. That caused me to open too many hands and to play moderate hands too aggressively.

Yesterday I went back to TAG play in my tourney game (and cashed in 3 of 5), and LAG play in my SnG (and cashed in 4 of 5). I need to remember to stick to the small ball MTT strategy, slowly building a stack and not risking it when I don't have to.

The main difference is, that you have deeper stacks in the early phase of an MTT, especially when you compare with a turbo SnG, where stacks get short very quickly. And sure playing a lot of very fast mostly push-fold games are not going to help develop your deep stack strategy, and it can perhaps be a little confusing even.

However even in turbo SnGs, stacks are still deep in the beginning, so the most important thing is to always keep stack sizes in mind. For me it helps a lot to display stacks in BB via my PT4, and on some sites like GG Poker you can do it via their own software.

And I still think, you are looking at a lot of variance here. Only cashing in 1 out of 32 MTTs is not just due to a few slight mistakes. A lot of run bad was almost certainly involved as well. And on the other side cashing in 47% of SnGs, that pay 33% of the field, is almost certainly not long term sustainable, so here a decent amount of run good was almost certainly involved.

But that being said if you enjoy those turbo 6-max SnGs and do well in them, then just continue to grind away, as long as it continues. Even though variance is almost certainly involved to some extend, it does make sense to continue doing, what is going well.

I can't really help you too much here. I late reg almost all of my MTTs, so they play like a hyper turbo for me (until I build a 20BB or greater stack).

I think the sample size is way to small to read to much into, play a few hundred more games and see how it looks.

@thehangdude, u must play tight, learn some basics for SNG. You have ICM at the begining. Even at 6 max. You can see the ranges for 6 max. For the cash games. Let's say KQo is borderline open without info. From UTG. In SNG this is loss for sure. Because the ICM. Even vs same crazy players. Some of them are probably crazy, but you don't have info, he can just 3bet 300 chips or go All in and you must fold. See the ranges for the cash games. Use for SNG very tight ranges "from" the cash games, nitty ranges.
In the MTT you must play looser. With wider ranges than the cash games. A little bit. Little tight for SNG, little loose for MTT.
There are some topics, where some coaches, and in this forum also, they said "my students play with 24/22 at early stages SNG". This is a suicide. Without info...But pretty normal in MTT.
Actually u must play tight in the early stages SNG, then more loose (easy to steal). In MTT loose in the early stages, then more tight (ICM). If you don't have an info or big stack.

UkoChebuko said:

@thehangdude, u must play tight, learn some basics for SNG. You have ICM at the begining. Even at 6 max. You can see the ranges for 6 max. For the cash games. Let's say KQo is borderline open without info. From UTG. In SNG this is loss for sure. Because the ICM. Even vs same crazy players. Some of them are probably crazy, but you don't have info, he can just 3bet 300 chips or go All in and you must fold. See the ranges for the cash games. Use for SNG very tight ranges "from" the cash games, nitty ranges.
In the MTT you must play looser. With wider ranges than the cash games. A little bit. Little tight for SNG, little loose for MTT.
There are some topics, where some coaches, and in this forum also, they said "my students play with 24/22 at early stages SNG". This is a suicide. Without info...But pretty normal in MTT.
Actually u must play tight in the early stages SNG, then more loose (easy to steal). In MTT loose in the early stages, then more tight (ICM). If you don't have an info or big stack.

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That is interesting, because I play the exact opposite. I am (a bit) loose in SnG because of the "now or never" speed of 5 minute blinds, and tight in MTT. Maybe it is because my games in SnG are 6 man, and MTT they are 9 man.

I recently got a HUD to see how my stats are. I would guess they're around 30/15 early in SnG. Probably way higher in both numbers as players get knocked out and blinds increase. HUD says 44/22, but much of that is three handed or heads up. In tournaments, I'm closer to 20/15.

I think (like everybody) I need more study time. Playing is good, but taking a bit of time out to improve your understanding is vital.

I learned this with practice, with software, gl with the forums, but SnG is dying format, the info is ten years old. At least, more, 12-13 years old.
For the SnG you will find a very tight ranges. For some brainless . Or retarded...I don't know, I never used this sh*t. And you will find in other places a loose ranges. Like in cash games. All this is a crap. Like I said. You must understand SnG. And the ICM will work for you. In most cases. You know, there are some cases in SNG, because the ICM you will have only -EV options. And because the players. Call, fold, raise, everything is -EV. Just a bad luck. Every coach is arguing about this. "This is a lie, there is always a +EV decision". I can show this with the HRC. They still will deny...I mean sometime there are one aggro fish and one calling station. The aggro knows about you (reg). And he plays against you with "losing moves". They are more "losing" for him, amd less for you. But still this is a loss. And the calling station. Some retarded pig. He will call, call, call...He don't care about the ICM. Same thing. And let's say you are on the BTN vs this two, 6 max , bubble. You already losing money. Do you understand? Because the ICM. If you start to learn, like me, you will find this situations. And this is the truth. There are "-Ev situations". In SNG. Can be soooooooo tilting. Once when you start to see this. When you play...

I remember, when I start to play SnG, long time ago, I played in one room for SNG leaderboard. Only $5. Buy in. But I played 300 tournaments per day. Sometime I won. Even vs $20-50 regs. 1k per weak. Was a specific formula. Whatever...I mean I played a lot, only with regs. And there was some idiot, a f*cking ape. Brainless reg. They all hated me, you know. Because I take 500 or $1000, this $5 regs take $100.
And this guy always played -EV against me. And don't kinow why. Because the hate. Or he was just retarded. And I also start to play -EV. Because he will exploite me, you know. And we play hundreds of tournaments every day. I just wanted to teach him a lessons. He losing more money than me. More loss for him. And this war started...Thousands of tournaments. I think he had loss from ~2k. For all this time, months. I mean only vs me. And I had let's say $500 loss from this "micro $5 war". And he just didn't stop. I did...And I learned my first "big" lesson for SNG. "Don't mess with an idiots, don't try to prove anything, you don't know how small is their brain". " They can be brainless and you will suffer". In SNG...SNG is "waters for nits". As 9 max cash games.