Player QQ against Big stack

SBTniceboard

SBTniceboard

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Tournament $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (60/120)
Table 9-max Seat #3 is the button

Seat 1: (13773 in chips)
Seat 2: (3455 in chips)
Seat 3BTN HERO : (6221 in chips)
Seat 4 SB: (8620 in chips)
Seat 5: BB (1665 in chips)
Seat 6: (2575 in chips)
Seat 7: (2959 in chips)
Seat 8: (4375 in chips)
Seat 9: (6138 in chips)

All Players Post Ante 15
Seat 4 posts small blind 60
Seat 5 posts big blind 120
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Qd Qc]
Seat 6: calls 120
Seat 7: calls 120
Seat 8: folds
Seat 9: folds
Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: calls 120
Seat 3 HERO: raises 6086 to 6206 and is all-in
Seat 4 re-raises to 8605 and is all-in [KK]
Seat 6: folds
Seat 7: calls 2440 and is all-in
Seat 2: folds

*** FLOP *** [4s 5h 2s]
*** TURN *** [4s 5h 2s] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [4s 5h 2s Jc] [Ah]
I pretty new to tourny play and still a noob. I looked round the table and thought I had everyone covered. For some reason I had completly missed the SB and as soon as they called I knew I was in trouble AA or KK. My question is apart from my schoolboy error, if I had spotted them and just raised pre flop, was there any way I was getting away from this hand? Im guessing in the SB and many limpers they would of re-raised pre flop. If they did what would be the best play from me since I had about 55BB's
Also the flop was pretty safe to a re-raise and no ace or king on board was I ever gonna get away from this hand?Would you consider folding QQ with 55BB's against the table leader?
Thank you all for the great forum and any time you take to try and educate me.
:)
 
SBTniceboard

SBTniceboard

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ooops sorry.
Went to post there and try and delete this one but have made 2 posts in 24 hours so if not moved by a mod I will do tommorrow. Thanks for info and again sorry. Another time were my observation skills are under par lol
 
naruto_miu

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I don't get it, why would you assume they have AA/KK when they call? I guess the only real issue is asking yourself why you shoved in the First place? Don't you want to make something for your big pairs?

As for your 2nd question if it's possible to fold it on that dry safe board, the answer really is player dependent +Reads...If the Leader is a Maniac then the Answer is No it's not Possible if there a Nit, safe bet would be just to C/R them on the flop and Fold to a Reshove once again depends on Reads....

So to clarify it for you...Lets Assume C.L has the AA/KK (That you assume they have)....You raise say 600, they RR say 1700-2000, You then have a Choice to make....A)You shove B)Call and then Re-evaluate on the Flop...
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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I don't get it, why would you assume they have AA/KK when they call? I guess the only real issue is asking yourself why you shoved in the First place? Don't you want to make something for your big pairs?

As for your 2nd question if it's possible to fold it on that dry safe board, the answer really is player dependent +Reads...If the Leader is a Maniac then the Answer is No it's not Possible if there a Nit, safe bet would be just to C/R them on the flop and Fold to a Reshove once again depends on Reads....

So to clarify it for you...Lets Assume C.L has the AA/KK (That you assume they have)....You raise say 600, they RR say 1700-2000, You then have a Choice to make....A)You shove B)Call and then Re-evaluate on the Flop...
^^^this^^^

being new to online poker, you have to learn how to read players at the table and the only reads you can gain online is through the amount the villain is willing to bet, you may also want a HUD which you can trial through poker tracker or other poker tracking software.
 
SBTniceboard

SBTniceboard

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Thank you all for your replies.
I shoved in the hope that 1 would call with small med pockets. Which is what I gathered one will probably have. One did call with 88.
I have just got myself Hold em manager which should help me once I get some hands recoreded in there. A few of the players that had limped had a VPIP of 35 which I thought was very high for early in a tourny. The player with KK I only had 17 hands stored on all I had on them was VPIP 12 PFR 12.
Like I said i am a noob so trying to read hands at the mo as well as do so many other things that I will do without thinking once I get more experienced.
Also in the past early in a tourny when there are still allot of bad loose players I don't like just raising cos if the first one calls they normally all do. But in the future should I start raising instead and dealing with multi callers when it comes?
The pot was 555 would a raise of about 600-650 be about right?
Thank you all again so much for sharing your skills and experience
 
Poker Orifice

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I don't get it, why would you assume they have AA/KK when they call? I guess the only real issue is asking yourself why you shoved in the First place? Don't you want to make something for your big pairs?

As for your 2nd question if it's possible to fold it on that dry safe board, the answer really is player dependent +Reads...If the Leader is a Maniac then the Answer is No it's not Possible if there a Nit, safe bet would be just to C/R them on the flop and Fold to a Reshove once again depends on Reads....

So to clarify it for you...Lets Assume C.L has the AA/KK (That you assume they have)....You raise say 600, they RR say 1700-2000, You then have a Choice to make....A)You shove B)Call and then Re-evaluate on the Flop...
you're going to want to 'call' if they re-raise you to 2,000 preflop here?
 
Poker Orifice

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OP, typically you want to raise ~3xbb +1bb for each limper who's in ahead of you. (if you're out of position in the blinds, make it 4xbb +1bb for each limper).
 
Poker Orifice

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I don't get it, why would you assume they have AA/KK when they call? ...
what else is going to make that call there?
^^^this^^^

being new to online poker, you have to learn how to read players at the table and the only reads you can gain online is through the amount the villain is willing to bet, you may also want a HUD which you can trial through poker tracker or other poker tracking software.
From reading OP's post, I'd personally strongly suggest you DO NOT get a HUD 'yet'.
 
SBTniceboard

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Im with you on this part. The second they called my end went down and I swore. I have played loads on cash games and instanly knew that with calling an all in here with still so many players to act there is no way I am getting called with anything less than KK, but thought maybe tournys was different when asked the question of how did I know it was AA or KK
On cash the instant call would come from KK. If there are players with even more chips than them then they take a bit of time before re-rasing/calling due to them thinking about the best course of action in getting even more money from the players left to act
Like the tip on how much to raise here. I will use that as a starting point but obviously mixing it up slighty once in a while. Thank you so much
 
SBTniceboard

SBTniceboard

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From reading OP's post, I'd personally strongly suggest you DO NOT get a HUD 'yet'.[/quote]

Sorry new to forums. Is OP's meaning me? If so why not? I can turn stats off if it's bad at first.
I got it months ago mainly for my cash games, which I don't know how I managed before without
 
naruto_miu

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To Poker Office, I stated it is all player Dependent...As I stated If the Player that RRAI is a Maniac then you want to call it And if they have AA/KK so be it...If the player is a Nit, then You don't want to call it, or you don't want to shove it...So both ways it's up to you...
 
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bigphatmike

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dude u gotta still love the queens, but not the open shove, when everyone that was in just calles the BB and you open raise all in, for 50x the BB all in , your usally not gonna get called unless they have you beat or they have a ak or aq suited situation..

hope that helped!
TTYL
 
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bigphatmike

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Also, stop callin yourself a noob, a positive mindset can go miles in this game. And you should always remeber not to talk chrap at the tables especially online because there is always karma and it comes when you least want it too
 
SBTniceboard

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Thanks for all your replies and I think my all in move for 55 BB's was dumb. Who else apart from bad players was gonna call me. Deep down I already knew this, if I didn't I wouldn't of thought oh no straight away after getting called.
From now on I will raise and try and isolate to heads up post flop. Not sure I would of been good enough to get away from that hand if I did raise but one day I will <----- see Positive thinking)
I love the guideline to raising fom Poker Orifice (Love the name by the way) Why do some people in tournys raise to silly amounts like 427. Is this to get that extra bit from their hands? or is it so people like me find it harder working out their odds to call?
 
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CromMitra

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they probably have thier bet sliders set when that funky raise is made quickly..
 
Poker Orifice

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I don't get it, why would you assume they have AA/KK when they call?
Because who would likely call with <AA/KK here?
To Poker Office, I stated it is all player Dependent...
why is it 'player dependent? 3 limpers.. HERO rrai w 51bb's w QQ.
As I stated If the Player that RRAI is a Maniac then you want to call it
Nobody rrai over HERO, they shoved. Pretty sure there's no option for them to now 'call'
And if they have AA/KK so be it...If the player is a Nit, then You don't want to call it, or you don't want to shove it...So both ways it's up to you...
Whether they're a nit or nut.. doesn't really matter does it? (am I reading the HH post wrong here... or maybe you?). I see 3 players limping in & then OP shipping 51bb's.
OP, (means 'original poster'.. or 'orginal post'), when we shove 51bb's here we're losing a TON of value because (as you know) we're folding out all hands we're ahead of & only likely getting called by hands that have us crushed (if there's even a remote chance of it). More so though, we're losing value here with a premium hand.
 
SBTniceboard

SBTniceboard

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So glad I posted here. Thank you all so much for your advice. Can't wait to get QQ again and start playing the hand better.
Thanks for the raising advice. Entered the same tourny last night and went out near the bubble. (Much better result) Could of made the money, but was trying to steal blinds etc in the hope of been in better shape after the bubble.
Thank you all again and I'm sure I will be posting again here soon after my next mistake lol
 
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swingro

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My advice. Never shove with QQ . Raise hard if there are limpers but do not take the innitiative by shoving preflop . If someone else shoves than think a litle. Is he a maniac who is capable of shoving with garbage? Than call. If he has AA, KK that's life. If he is a nit than you have to consider folding because you are flipping or worse in most cases.
 
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eazy489

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Hey guys

I am a long time MTT grinder on UB/AP. I've profited over 100k online. Here's my take on the situation.

You started the hand very deep, over 50 BB's. Always keep in mind how many BB's you have. Between 10-15 is a SS, 15-30 is a mid stack, and 30+ is considered a big stack.

That being said you were super deep to start the hand. You should be min raising or at most 3xing this button here with QQ. You want to make it look like you are trying to steal the pot with a min raise. Don't be afraid that you are giving good pot odds to your opponents. REmember, you are super deep with a premium hand. Get used to 2xing, 2.5xing or 3xing all of your raises.

The only way I would ever ship in this spot is if i knew someone in the blinds was tilting and going to call super light, or if they are just a huge fish who donks off lots of chips.

All this said though, I'm never really getting away from my QQ here. It's just too strong of a hand. Unless I had a super solid read, which most of the time when you are playing online, you don't, I'm not getting away from the QQ. I consider it a cooler. Hope this helps.
 
SBTniceboard

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Helps loads thanks.
The main reason why I posted the hand was the fact that even though I know shoving was silly if I had raise how to people get away from their hand on that type of flop cos I couldn't see myself folding here anyway.
There were plenty of donks it was a $3 buy in with a field of nearly 3,000 (After me shoving here have included myself in this group lol)
I think not rasing small e.g. 2xbb is one of my weaknesses as I always think im doing to get donked. I will try and work on this as I can see the advantages if I have shown a few very goods hands after a min raise later on when I want to be stealing blinds left right and centre on the bubble.
Again thank you so much for your advice and time
 
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