Play to win or play to stay...

The Daily Grinder - $1 - 20k guaranteed Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 1200/2400 Blinds 300 Ante (9 handed)

OK. First off, I didnt put this in the HA cause thats not the main reason for posting this, its more of set up for the question.

Im in the top 125 of the tourney. Was at the same table as villain for a while and have seen them make some real donk plays and raisin UTG with KQo and things like that. Lately villain has gone all in every 10 hands or so. his stack isnt huge but not really push or fold yet(is it?). so i dont/cant really put him on As or Ks. pots are 6300 before any action with the antes and blinds. Maybe my raise was a little small but im kind of in the school of playin smaller pots OPP rather then bigger pots. So ill fold this to anyone else at the table other then the SSers but this guy I couldnt. Its very easy for him to have any A or K in his hand or even AK but I have almost twice his stack so....

Is this a play to win call?


SB (t31706)
Villain(t47507)
Hero (UTG) (t95323)
UTG+1 (t40129)
MP1 (t42580)
MP2 (t29775)
MP3 (t75148)
CO (t49910)
Button (t71089)

Hero's M: 15.13

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets t6500, 7 folds, Villain raises to t47207 (All-In), Hero calls t40707

Flop: (t98314) K, 3, 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t98314) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t98314) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t98314

Results below:
Villain had K, J (two pair, Kings and fives).
Hero had Q, Q (two pair, Queens and fives).
Outcome: Villain won t98314

Like u said u've seen villain go a bit nuts and make plays with KQo UTG. He could have the A or the K, mayb AK or KK+ but with QQ in a MTT i'd take a gamble against this douche to try and make it into the top 3 to try and win it.
Guess he got uber lucky...Im guessin he's a noob to b shoving his whole stack against a UTG raiser with KJ. Was it even suited?! lol. Did he even stop to think UTG raiser could have AK? Which makes his hand shit. Guess not lol.
Maybe raise more UTG with ur strong pocket pair? Maybe to something like 8000?

Ur initial bet is just 3x, i would play 4x or 5x preflop with QQ...Believe its very effective that way...
And ur post flop actions were wrong too...

Lol, and its not "play to win" or "play to stay"...but it is " play to win by playing to stay" !!!

You found players like him very often...
He got his 30% and will try to double up often...
Do the math. Your play has been the right one!

Nothing wrong with your play. Initial bet could have been a bit bigger but I dont think he would have backed off.

and... ITS PLAY TO WIN!

I think it was better to bet UTG preflop at least 12K-15K (2 x the pot)... Villain could be playing crazy but even the worst players know KJ is probably no good if someone open-raises with 15% of his stack.

Villains know that 15% of the stack UTG raise is committing you to the pot, and they realize you can't fold. He may have passed if you had put 15K preflop.

your right spidey, my post flop play was quite bad, lols.

so my problem with raising bigger preflop is that im essentially just takin the blinds unless someone has As or Ks and in that case im a total dog. they might call with AK or AQ/AJs and then i can play post flop pretty easy. thats just how my table was playing. of course if any short stacker goes all in im callin. i wanted to play a pot here so thats my reasoning for playin it like i did. i even knew there was a good chance villain was gonna push as that was his game at the moment. hes pushin with A10+ or any pair with how much hes been goin all in so i like my call. to me Qs are the new Js. more feedback on this would be cool.

spiderman637 said:

Ur initial bet is just 3x, i would play 4x or 5x preflop with QQ...Believe its very effective that way...
And ur post flop actions were wrong too...

Lol, and its not "play to win" or "play to stay"...but it is " play to win by playing to stay" !!!

Click to expand...

I like this idea... honestly I dont mind the all in with QQ I would have made the same move but Spidey's idea of pot control preflop is smart... but remember how much of a donkfest DD is, I wouldnt be surprised if the 4-5x would get the same all in result.

spiderman637 said:

Ur initial bet is just 3x, i would play 4x or 5x preflop with QQ...Believe its very effective that way...
And ur post flop actions were wrong too...

Lol, and its not "play to win" or "play to stay"...but it is " play to win by playing to stay" !!!

Click to expand...

I disagree with this member's response.
Your raise size preflop is 'typically' perfect (when playing on tables with decent players..... ~2.3-2.5x in late levels is standard). On a super micro buyin (especially in early levels) you might want to increase your preflop raise size, especially if the blinds are loose calling stations, defending with all kinds of junk (which is also common).

Tip: when posting HandHistory questions, only post up until 'Hero's' turn to act (the spot where you need to make a decision).
ie. Hero raise to 2.5bb, Villlain shoves over with ~20bb's... Hero: ??

Things to consider in hand >
range villain is shoving on & how active they've been (their stack size is actually a perfect "resteal-sized stack", in the neighbourhood of between 12-22bb's.
Your own table image - - what range villain might be putting you on (& whether or not you figure the other players are even paying attention.... based on their prior play).
How your hand does vs. their resteal range
How your play will be affected if you call & lose the hand (ie. will it leave you crippled, or are you in a situation where taking the chance outweighs the risk of losing 20bb's).

In this hand you'll be left with ~20bb's if you call & lose which is fine. You just have to adjust your play accordingly (look for resteal spots of your own). You call & win, it allows you to put pressure on table as a bigstack.

Assessing villain's range (seeing it is a micro),... I would take AA & KK out of the equation right away (I think they'd 3bet smaller, although in a larger buyin they would probably shove to disguise the strength of their hand, making it appear like a wider range of hands that would typically be resteal/shoving... in the micros this level of thinking is usually lost on them & 3betting is often better.. or even flatting if stack is <20bb's).
We can't limit villain's range to hands we'd be flipping with (that'd only be AK)... as I believe their range would/could be much wider than this (88+,AQ+).

In other words >>>> "Easy Call Here"

PS - raising with KQo utg at this stage of the tourney isn't so bad (in early levels... yah.. not so good).

I think your play was way more on track than the responses/comments here have suggested. With the stack sizes on your table (there are alot of "re-steal-sized" stacks), & with the one other player who seems like he knows what he's doing (the guy who's been shipping it), this is a perfect oppurtunity to raise up ~2.4x in EP, in hopes of having another player come over the top so you can get as many chips into the middle as possible.
You FOR SURE don't want to raise up 5x in hopes of just taking down the blinds??????? That is super rookie donkament, freeroller style of play.

In my opinion, you played the hand PEFECTLY & got just what you should want (a ton of chips into the center with one other player as a huge favourite). The result is insignificant (don't be a results oriented player). I mean consider what some are saying on this thread.... are they really suggesting that if we were to raise it up 5x pre, that a resteal sized stack would then not ship it, knowing we're then priced in to call their shove?? We don't want this....we want exactly what we got >>> resteal-sized stack ships it allin over our 'correctly-sized raise' & we call getting it in headsup WAY AHEAD!! What could be better than that? (this should be our goal imo). He draws out on us.... so what.. oh well.. now we adjust our play according to our stack size & look for spots to get our stack in good.

spiderman637 said:

Ur initial bet is just 3x, i would play 4x or 5x preflop with QQ...Believe its very effective that way...
And ur post flop actions were wrong too...

Lol, and its not "play to win" or "play to stay"...but it is " play to win by playing to stay" !!!

Click to expand...

How are HERO's postflop actions wrong?? (lol).. he got it in with villain preflop way ahead... there wasn't any postflop play????

salim271 said:

I like this idea... honestly I dont mind the all in with QQ I would have made the same move but Spidey's idea of pot control preflop is smart... but remember how much of a donkfest DD is, I wouldnt be surprised if the 4-5x would get the same all in result.

Click to expand...

Alright, I feel the need to disagree again on here (lol). salim271.. how is raising 5x preflop in EP with a solid hand in late levels of a tournament considered 'pot control'?????? "Pot Control" has nothing to do with this at all??? Can you explain?
Isn't our goal to try to get as many chips into the middle as possible while being a HUGE favourite? Please correct me if I'm wrong.