T
The_Pup
Rock Star
Silver Level
Very often on this forum a poster will make the statement that they 'play to win.' This usually comes after half a dozen posters have discussed something like the merits of calling/folding a shortstack with AQo on the bubble.
I do find this sort of comment mildly irritating and would like to bang on about it for a few minutes. The PTW comment is usually followed by a recommendation to shove your stack - I have get to read a post that says 'you are playing to win, so fold.' As far as I know there is only one way to win a tournament and that is to win the final hand with the bigger (or biggest) stack. It doesn't matter a jot whether we get the biggest stack on the penultimate hand or one two hours previously.
It stands to reason that we would prefer to finish in first place, but it doesn't always make sense to risk everything to achieve this. What does make sense is to to play to make the best $ decision based on the situation we find ourselves in. Here's an extreme example to illustrate my point: we are on the bubble in a 100 player tourney with one chip and KK, blinds are 100/200 and two players with exactly the same stacks are all in. If we fold we are almost guaranteed a prize, if we call and win how much more likely are we to win the tourney or even get a higher than min cash with our 3 chips? A PTW comment here seems rather meaningless to me. From this rather absurd situation we can imagine a bigger stack and different cards until we reach a point at which the decision becomes more marginal; it is usually these marginal (or what people think are marginal) hands that people raise here.
When we are considering a more realistic situation we should still be making decisions based on what is the best $ play. For example, suppose we are considering calling a bet on the river and we 'know' we will win 60% of the time. Surely the sensible decision is to consider whether the chips won are worth enough more than those lost (in the long run) to make it a good $ decision. Again, the PTW comment is meaningless here too. (There are other important factors such as table image to consider too, but for now I want to keep this to the maths.)
The best way I know of making the right decision in these situation is by using ICM. This will tell us whether our call with a 60% chance of winning will give us a stack that is of more $ value than the fold. If you still think that since we are ahead with a probability 60% we should call then compare these two situations: hero and villain both have 5000 chips and the pot is 600; villain minbets 20 chips and we reckon we are ahead 60% - easy call. Same situation but villain goes all in - which wins us most $, call or fold, in the long term?
I think PTW is just one of those lazy phrases that appears on the surface to contain insight but in reality is just saving the speaker the effort of doing the maths. PTW means nothing to me and offers no justification for any particular action. I don't play to win (unless there is some extra value in winning a tourney eg pride) but I play for the best $ value given the position I am in. The question I ask myself during a tourney is not 'How can I win it?' but 'How can I get most money?' These aren't the same.
If you've got this far thanks for reading my rant - I feel a whole lot better for getting it off my chest.
I do find this sort of comment mildly irritating and would like to bang on about it for a few minutes. The PTW comment is usually followed by a recommendation to shove your stack - I have get to read a post that says 'you are playing to win, so fold.' As far as I know there is only one way to win a tournament and that is to win the final hand with the bigger (or biggest) stack. It doesn't matter a jot whether we get the biggest stack on the penultimate hand or one two hours previously.
It stands to reason that we would prefer to finish in first place, but it doesn't always make sense to risk everything to achieve this. What does make sense is to to play to make the best $ decision based on the situation we find ourselves in. Here's an extreme example to illustrate my point: we are on the bubble in a 100 player tourney with one chip and KK, blinds are 100/200 and two players with exactly the same stacks are all in. If we fold we are almost guaranteed a prize, if we call and win how much more likely are we to win the tourney or even get a higher than min cash with our 3 chips? A PTW comment here seems rather meaningless to me. From this rather absurd situation we can imagine a bigger stack and different cards until we reach a point at which the decision becomes more marginal; it is usually these marginal (or what people think are marginal) hands that people raise here.
When we are considering a more realistic situation we should still be making decisions based on what is the best $ play. For example, suppose we are considering calling a bet on the river and we 'know' we will win 60% of the time. Surely the sensible decision is to consider whether the chips won are worth enough more than those lost (in the long run) to make it a good $ decision. Again, the PTW comment is meaningless here too. (There are other important factors such as table image to consider too, but for now I want to keep this to the maths.)
The best way I know of making the right decision in these situation is by using ICM. This will tell us whether our call with a 60% chance of winning will give us a stack that is of more $ value than the fold. If you still think that since we are ahead with a probability 60% we should call then compare these two situations: hero and villain both have 5000 chips and the pot is 600; villain minbets 20 chips and we reckon we are ahead 60% - easy call. Same situation but villain goes all in - which wins us most $, call or fold, in the long term?
I think PTW is just one of those lazy phrases that appears on the surface to contain insight but in reality is just saving the speaker the effort of doing the maths. PTW means nothing to me and offers no justification for any particular action. I don't play to win (unless there is some extra value in winning a tourney eg pride) but I play for the best $ value given the position I am in. The question I ask myself during a tourney is not 'How can I win it?' but 'How can I get most money?' These aren't the same.
If you've got this far thanks for reading my rant - I feel a whole lot better for getting it off my chest.