steveiam
CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
If you are only min cashing 25% of the time then your losing money. So your ROI is what you need to look at but you are going to need a much bigger sample size to get an accurate figure. Some would say several hundred games.
But it's a good start anyway.
But it's a good start anyway.
K
kworm2013
Rock Star
Silver Level
I think you are talking about the pokerschool tourment of 10000 people play.I have play more than 100 games for that. My best personal score is No.2. And one time is No. 11. I think it is easy to in the money.Because when u have strong cards,you all in and someone follow.But in 25% is very good. I can't achieve the 10%.
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
25% in the money in 10,000 player fields is quite excellent I think!
The only obvious comment to make is you don't want to be sacrificing a potentially higher ROI for the safety of min cashing.
Ex: I once had a year when I had learned the ropes of poker, but was still quite nitty and timid where I had an ITM% of 32.8% for the year...but I actually LOST a little bit of money because they were pretty much all min-cashes except 1.
Nowadays, my ITM% for large MTTs is something like 18-22% (depending on how large the field is) but my ROI is much higher...
The only obvious comment to make is you don't want to be sacrificing a potentially higher ROI for the safety of min cashing.
Ex: I once had a year when I had learned the ropes of poker, but was still quite nitty and timid where I had an ITM% of 32.8% for the year...but I actually LOST a little bit of money because they were pretty much all min-cashes except 1.
Nowadays, my ITM% for large MTTs is something like 18-22% (depending on how large the field is) but my ROI is much higher...
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T
TryToWin
Rising Star
Bronze Level
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
ITM% are in general irrelevant but I also have to say, if you're cashing a high percentage in large field MTT's then you're not playing correctly.
By this I mean, better players who often final table or win tournaments have a far less ITM% than someone who cashes often. Your sample size is small too, but I really wouldn't be focusing on your ITM%.
By this I mean, better players who often final table or win tournaments have a far less ITM% than someone who cashes often. Your sample size is small too, but I really wouldn't be focusing on your ITM%.
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Macaroon
Rock Star
Silver Level
This is a weird sort of logic that I've seen elsewhere in these forums. What this poster is saying in that first sentence is that it's better to cash fewer times than a lot!!! What sort of rubbish is that?
What he assumes is that if someone cashes frequently then they are always winning only tiny amounts, which is a ridiculous assumption.
I was once told in these forums that if I am usually ahead on a showdown I am playing too tightly! Word fail me...
Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
You're applying reductio ad absurdum, which is by definition ridiculous. My drop in ITM wasn't nearly as sharp as missjacki's, but like her, I experienced an increase in my ROI when my ITM dropped. I wasn't always just min-cashing, but I did have a higher proportion of small cashes and thus lower proportions of mid- and large cashes than I do now. This shift in balance translated to more profitability.
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Macaroon
Rock Star
Silver Level
Indeed. But that applied to you. You simply cannot assume that someone who cashes in 25% of MTTs is always mini-cashing. Why should you assume that? Of course if someone goes from playing tight to aggressive their number of cashes is likely to fall but their ROI will probably go up. But just because someone cashes a lot how do you know he's not winning a lot?
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WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
i think you all have fair points(macaroon and arjonius)
here's my 2 cents.
this all stems from a bad question in the op, and a lack of info in the op. i see it on this forum constantly, people asking general questions and getting general answers that don't help them in the slightest.
i think we need to come up with a FAQ in the tourney thread that covers this, because bad questions will almost always lead to bad answers which help no one. i usually just ignore questions like op's as there is no answer i can give them that really helps in anyway, unless i want to write a book about it!
here's my 2 cents.
this all stems from a bad question in the op, and a lack of info in the op. i see it on this forum constantly, people asking general questions and getting general answers that don't help them in the slightest.
i think we need to come up with a FAQ in the tourney thread that covers this, because bad questions will almost always lead to bad answers which help no one. i usually just ignore questions like op's as there is no answer i can give them that really helps in anyway, unless i want to write a book about it!
T0mmmi
Rock Star
Silver Level
Wouw !
Man you either are next Bloom or extremely lucky do make it ITM 25% of times after just starting to play ! I play mostly SnG and Cash , but have tried some Freerolls and 2 Buy-In tourmaments and have like 7% ITM only ....
This : " Depends on the field size. I also don't care much about itm, I only care about roi. Chances are a few deep runs will make you more money then a bunch on min cashes, and I only care about profit." is pretty good view if you do not have time you spend playing but there might be few players who has that and can choose this way ... I do prefer smaller chash in much quicker time $/Hour is that matter
Man you either are next Bloom or extremely lucky do make it ITM 25% of times after just starting to play ! I play mostly SnG and Cash , but have tried some Freerolls and 2 Buy-In tourmaments and have like 7% ITM only ....
This : " Depends on the field size. I also don't care much about itm, I only care about roi. Chances are a few deep runs will make you more money then a bunch on min cashes, and I only care about profit." is pretty good view if you do not have time you spend playing but there might be few players who has that and can choose this way ... I do prefer smaller chash in much quicker time $/Hour is that matter
Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
And exactly where did I make such an assumption?
Where did I say that it's impossible to have a high ITM and to win a lot?
kidkvno1
Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
The goal in a MTT is to place 1st.
Key points are missing, like the buy-in for the game and places paid, and without that data you can't tell if just placing is better than winning the game.
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neverendingh
Rising Star
Silver Level
Well...my 2 cents...
i've made progress, up until to the point where i actually won a mtt. Then i had good run for a week(played about 100mtts that week), made it a lot ITM and made even some final tables, then...boom, nothing in almost two weeks (i don't keep count, but ~2 weeks should be right). Now it's hard even to get ITM. What am i talking? In the last 50+ mtts i managed to not even reach the freakin bubble.
If, by any chance, i'll make a huge recovery and say...win 1 mtt from the next 30, i'm well off. Gives me the chance to play another 100-150.
So yeah, ITM is not as important as ROI.
i've made progress, up until to the point where i actually won a mtt. Then i had good run for a week(played about 100mtts that week), made it a lot ITM and made even some final tables, then...boom, nothing in almost two weeks (i don't keep count, but ~2 weeks should be right). Now it's hard even to get ITM. What am i talking? In the last 50+ mtts i managed to not even reach the freakin bubble.
If, by any chance, i'll make a huge recovery and say...win 1 mtt from the next 30, i'm well off. Gives me the chance to play another 100-150.
So yeah, ITM is not as important as ROI.
S
Swickster007
Rock Star
Silver Level
25% isn't too hateful, especially if you are taking top 5 from time to time. The ITM really doesn't matter too much tho because it's all about the ROI. If you are ITM 40% of the time, but taking that last paid position every time....compared to if you are ITM 10% of the time, but taking first or 2nd every time, you probably will see a much greater return with that 10%.
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
One thing I'll add is that so many people are fans of saying "play for first" or "all the money is in the top spots, so shoot for the top" or "go broke or go home in MTT" it's almost like they're just quoting each other all across the forum (I am guilty of this) and accepting this as gospel without really examining what that means or considering what it looks like in practice.
Yes, of course we all want to win first place, and presumably none of us would enter a tourney if we didn't think we had a decent chance of taking it down.
But...you don't want to put the cart before the horse.
To get to first place, you MUST cash. you simply must. There's a lot of other important stuff that happens in between cashing and first place but NONE of it even has a chance to transpire unless you first cash. I think hyper aggressive players forget this sometimes.
I'm not diminshing the value of playing aggressive on the bubble, or accumulating chips in the middle, or being willing to take calculated risks anytime you deem it is acceptable for your stack and your goals...I'm just saying that some players wildy over simplify and over-romanticize the notion of "playing for first".
I still treat my chips with great care at all stages of the tourney. They are my little soldiers that I don't want to recklessly send them into harm's way without a really good reason or purpose. Now, you cannot win a war without spilling a little blood, but the art of war is about a lot of different strategies and tactics and balancing a delicate and dynamic equation; picking your battles is just as much a winning strategy in poker as it is in war.
Yes, of course we all want to win first place, and presumably none of us would enter a tourney if we didn't think we had a decent chance of taking it down.
But...you don't want to put the cart before the horse.
To get to first place, you MUST cash. you simply must. There's a lot of other important stuff that happens in between cashing and first place but NONE of it even has a chance to transpire unless you first cash. I think hyper aggressive players forget this sometimes.
I'm not diminshing the value of playing aggressive on the bubble, or accumulating chips in the middle, or being willing to take calculated risks anytime you deem it is acceptable for your stack and your goals...I'm just saying that some players wildy over simplify and over-romanticize the notion of "playing for first".
I still treat my chips with great care at all stages of the tourney. They are my little soldiers that I don't want to recklessly send them into harm's way without a really good reason or purpose. Now, you cannot win a war without spilling a little blood, but the art of war is about a lot of different strategies and tactics and balancing a delicate and dynamic equation; picking your battles is just as much a winning strategy in poker as it is in war.
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TryToWin
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Okay, I have been doing that and I'm in top 1000 out of 85000. So I guess I'm doing good. thanks.
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TryToWin
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Thanks, I think I'm playing okay. Just playing freerolls for tickets for weekend games. Have 17 on ftp (they seem easy to win, only need to be top 200) and 8 on pokerstars (top 48 or 64 get tickets) Came first once. Just need to get my butt out of bed on the weekend to play for the money. Trying to start a bankroll from nothing. Played three so far and won $2 ticket on full tilt and almost made the bubble on pokerstars. (lost with AA once and QQQ other time, with above average stacks) (one guy calls raise with 64. flop A64, river 4). I hope I'm not just getting lucky.
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Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
Obviously winning without cashing is impossible. That said, this doesn't reflect the full picture since it doesn't take into account that for most of an MTT, "playing to win" is a misnomer. You're actually playing to get deep with enough chips to have a decent chance to win.
It's a matter of balance. Playing conservatively so you're more likely to be ITM comes at the cost of being less likely to go deep and win, which lowers your EV. Otoh, trying too hard / taking too many risks because you don't care at all about cashing probably lowers your EV too.