Passive big stacked donk, what would you do?

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WiZZiM

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Ok heres a hypothetical situation for you guys
Hero has been dealt KJo
Blinds 50/100
CO t1000
Hero t500
SB t2000
BB t150

Heres the situation,

CO is a decent regular, rarely misses a shove

SB got to a big stack, and has been very passive, he has been 'walking' the BB a lot of the time, and he's not doing it intentionally to bleed chips off the other stacks, he just doesn't know any better, he is essentially a massive donkey.

BB has been playing pretty conservative, but he seems to know when its a good time to fold/shove, seems to be a decent tight player.


What's your best move here and why? and keep in mind future situations.
 
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The_Pup

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Can you clarify a few things, Wizz?

Are the stacks after or before blinds were posted? Are we on the bubble here? Has CO folded? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by ''walking' the BB'.

Thanks.
 
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WiZZiM

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Sorry, were on the bubble

yes, stack sizes are before the blinds are posted, so if the BB folds he has 50 chips left.

Yes the CO folds to us on the button, we have KJoff

'walking the BB' means that the big stacked SB is folding to the BB, or giving him a 'walk' where clearly he should be shoving very wide. (or folding and shoving the next hand to take chips of medium stacks)
 
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jaded848

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I always get screwed in these situations but I can't help shoving here. Sure the BB is really short but theres no guarantee SB will complete. Our hand is racing against most pairs and only crushed by AA-JJ, AK, AJ, and KQ. A BB who has been folding alot thus far is most likely waiting for one of those hands, so we have alot of fold equity, and a good chance to knockout the BB and gain some chips. The extra chips give us added fold equity going into the money, even though we currently have relatively more chips than the BB, we are still short stacked, and one 1st place finish is worth as much as 5 3rd place finishes. Furthermore, losing to the BB does not knock us out, but instead just makes us about even stacked.

Maybe it's just based on bad experiences, but I've folded in situations like this before and the damn SB always seems to fold and I end up getting knocked out first.
 
Poker Orifice

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What % of hands do we figure SB is calling our shove here with?

If we shove, SB folds & we lose to BB (who's obviously priced in), We will either have to shove w ~3bb in CO the very next hand, OR passively call in while we're on BB.

I say shove.
(odd stack sizes in this 'hypothetical' spot)
 
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WiZZiM

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The sb is tight, but he is a donk, so calling range of any pair, any ace any broadway seems about right, about 25-28%

it's a situation that comes up a lot, in the micros because donks dont like shoving 74 off, even though its a good shove, and even higher limits, where the regs will fold to bleed chips of remaining players, really interesting spot, i know the stack sizes arnt anywhere close to being realistic, but hey, its hypothetical right? :D
 
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jaded848

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The sb is tight, but he is a donk, so calling range of any pair, any ace any broadway seems about right, about 25-28%

it's a situation that comes up a lot, in the micros because donks dont like shoving 74 off, even though its a good shove, and even higher limits, where the regs will fold to bleed chips of remaining players, really interesting spot, i know the stack sizes arnt anywhere close to being realistic, but hey, its hypothetical right? :D

Any broadway? As in, any single K Q J? I can't see tight donks like this calling with weak queens or jacks, but maybe I've just been facing tighter players.
 
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WiZZiM

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Any broadway? As in, any single K Q J? I can't see tight donks like this calling with weak queens or jacks, but maybe I've just been facing tighter players.
We are pretty short here, dont forget. since it's only 500 chips, his range should naturally be a little wider, lets say, for this example hes going to play good broadway, like QJs, KQ etc, i think that's a reasonable range, something like 23%

Anyways were getting off track, this is just a hypothetical situation, so if he's calling with a range of around 25%, which i think is reasonable, what would you think is the best play? I know im going to get grilled for posting the answer, but hopefully i can explain it well. Ill post it in a couple of days, hopefuly i get some more responces. Just try and think about all your options, believe me, none of them are great.
 
cjatud2012

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I think we can actually fold here. Even though our hand is above average, if we shove, we have a guaranteed showdown with at least the BB, possibly the SB. If we get HU against the BB, we'll probably be 60/40 or so, which is good since we're the favorite, but if we lose, then we're down to 3.5 bb's with blinds about to hit us.

If we fold, then the SB, although he has been passive up to this point, might actually wake up with a hand and put the BB all-in. If not, then BB gets a walk, and the decent player in the CO now becomes the BB. I would suspect that he would call with any two cards against a push from the shorty, now in the SB. So if we fold our KJo and our next hand when we're in the CO, we will see if the shorty gets knocked out without putting ourselves at a lot of risk. If he survives, then we'll hit the blinds, and have 3.5 bb's left, which is still enough to play with at these blinds.
 
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jasdell

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Personally, with stack sizes the way they are and our cards, I like to ship it. I think CO is low enough to not be looking to get into a hand with you without at least a decent Ace, SB may still fold, and if he doesn't you have a decent shot at knocking him out (I play bounty SnGs so it makes a little difference) BB folds 75% of the time based on your read.

If they all fold you're now at 650 chips and you've showed some aggression which I think makes our CO a little less likely to shove on our blind next hand cause we are showing we are more likely to call and it'll hurt him more if we do (provided he is paying attention and not multi tabling his ass off)

Also the small stack and big stack may fold next hand hand giving you a walk bringing your chip count up to 700 and a decent chance of shoving on CO who will likely fold with the small stack being all in next hand, putting you at 800 chips and a very close competitor for 2nd and a shot at winning the thing.

This as opposed to folding here and being forced to fold our BB to drop to 400 then our SB to drop to 350 and praying the shorty gets bust on his BB (if he doesn't shove AND lose this hand)

I think the value you gain from tournaments you win by being aggressive makes up for the tournaments you lose trying to out last the other shorty in this situation.
 
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I think we can actually fold here. Even though our hand is above average, if we shove, we have a guaranteed showdown with at least the BB, possibly the SB. If we get HU against the BB, we'll probably be 60/40 or so, which is good since we're the favorite, but if we lose, then we're down to 3.5 bb's with blinds about to hit us.

If we fold, then the SB, although he has been passive up to this point, might actually wake up with a hand and put the BB all-in. If not, then BB gets a walk, and the decent player in the CO now becomes the BB. I would suspect that he would call with any two cards against a push from the shorty, now in the SB. So if we fold our KJo and our next hand when we're in the CO, we will see if the shorty gets knocked out without putting ourselves at a lot of risk. If he survives, then we'll hit the blinds, and have 3.5 bb's left, which is still enough to play with at these blinds.


Although in the heat of battle I am shoving my KJo, I think cjat.. is on to something here. The cutoff is possibly a more significant player here, even though they have already folded! If the SB walks the BB (thanks for the definition Wizz) then the next hand becomes the significant one. With a decent hand we could open shove and probably be in similar shape to if we shove this hand; without a hand we can let the player to our right try to take out the SS who will play a wide range.

Perhaps the twist to this question is that even if we win the shove in the original hand we will be in the BB with a short stack next hand and the player to our right will surely be putting pressure on us. We are likely folding junk and then posting a small blind from a stack of 600 which isn't a whole lot better than a scenario where we folded the original hand and the player to our right has taken out the SS on the following hand.

I'd be interested to see some ICM stats (no time to do so myself now) and I am sure I have something to learn from this interesting question.
 
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jasdell

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Yea i think when i was typing my reply up I got confused on seats or who was BB and SB

disregard it all lol
 
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WiZZiM

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Ill let it go for another day or so, to get more responces, then discuss the merits of each option, limping, folding and shoving.
 
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WiZZiM

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So this is a situation, if youve played any decent amount of volume you will run into pretty quick. It happens at high and low stakes and it's good to know how to deal with it when it happens, If the passive big stack is constantly walking the BB, your stack will start to dwindle fast.

At low stakes, you will see it due to poor play, like the big stack just doesn't know any better, he doesnt want to shove with 9 2 offsuit, when, we know it would be a profitable shove.

You will see it at higher stakes because the players are good, and intentionally fold, in order to bleed chips from the medium stacks, and crush the bubble.

So, we can't just let it go on, we have to deal with it somehow.

Folding isn't great, as we allow the BB to get another walk, and basically we haven't dealt with the situation at all. And in another orbit or so, we may be at the same chip stack as the shortie.

Shoving here with a hand like KJ is bad, as the SB will look us up often enough to make it a bad shove. Refer to diagram. I made a mistake and used KQ instead of KJ, but it just helps to prove my point, now, i said he was passive, i didn't say he was tight, and hes still looking us up pretty wide, i mean, its not going to kill him to call, the ranges i think are about right, in any case, shoving is pretty bad.

now, i expect to be chased out of this forum with torches and pitchforks for promoting limping but, sometimes in bubble situations, you just have to.

limping with the intention of folding to a SB shove is the best play. If they are just bad they will fold, but if they are good, they will shove really wide here. Even knowing that the SB will shove ATC limp/folding is still the best play. If that happens, you will lose a blind sure, but its the best of the bad choices we have. The BB will also fold a ton when the see limp/shove before them, basically crippling themselves in the hope that you'll call when you have no intention of doing so. I mean we have no intention of calling with KJ, if shoving with it is bad, then calling with it can never be good. So if the SB folds, were never folding to anything the BB does, and we achieve the exact same thing shoving would have. Since hes calling pretty wide when the SB folds. Basically what limping allows us too acomplish is it prevents the BB from staying alive.

Of course if we have a decent hand, were going to be shoving for value.
 

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Jillychemung

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Very interesting WiZZiM. The other thing I like here is that a lot of times our limp here will be seen by the SB as us having a monster hand and so IMHO in a number of cases our limp here will tighten SB range.
 
djkismet

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not counting any big read i have on the sb i would most likely shove this cus u may get the sb thinkin yer stealin and call w/ kj k10 maybe even less
 
bhood1776

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In your opening statement you said BB was a decent tight player. So we are to believe that a decent tight player would fold his BB with only 50 chips left on the hope that we will call the all-in from SB?

A decent player would know that if we're going to call an all-in, we woulda just shoved from the beginning. A decent player would also know that we could just fold ourselves leaving him f***ed for his last hand.

The SB was suppose to be the donkey here, but a fold by the BB would be the worst move possible.
 
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Lol wish I had read this thread earlier.. The BB wasn't quite as small but I open shoved with an A and got looked up by both of them and went busto in fourth... they had TT and KK

Bleh.

I like it though, Good post.
 
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WiZZiM

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In your opening statement you said BB was a decent tight player. So we are to believe that a decent tight player would fold his BB with only 50 chips left on the hope that we will call the all-in from SB?

A decent player would know that if we're going to call an all-in, we woulda just shoved from the beginning. A decent player would also know that we could just fold ourselves leaving him f***ed for his last hand.

The SB was suppose to be the donkey here, but a fold by the BB would be the worst move possible.

sigh, it's a hypothetical situation. I just threw reads in randomly, it really doesnt matter, im jus trying to show anohther way of dealing with this specific situtaion, where the big stacked sb is folding to the bb. If i meant for this to be taken literally, i would have posted an exact HH in the HA section.


And ok with reads, we take him folding out of the equation or whatever, it still doesnt matter, we've stopped him from staying alive
 
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I can understand why you suspect you may be hounded out of town, but I for one agree with your analysis. Since posting my previous thoughts about the merits of folding I started to consider the limp/fold to SB option and came to a similar conclusion. What I find interesting about this situation is that I have become conditioned to having only two options when I am so short stacked - don't we all know that when you have a small stack we either shove or fold?

Thanks for an interesting question Wizz thatmade me taake a different look at a not uncommon situation. All that said I know I'll just shove the next time I come across it ;)
 
OzExorcist

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Gotta admit, I don't think limp-folding is a solution that would ever have crossed my mind.

It's something I've definitely done in other situations, usually when stacks are deeper and even (when everyone's got around 2.5-3K on the bubble of an STT, for example) and I'm trying to contribute a bit of dead money in the hope it'll cause two of the other players to go at each other and either create a weak stack to pick on or even cause a knockout. That's only ever been when I've got the money to spare with a stack around 20bb though.

But in this situation, this short, my mind would've automatically gone into shove / fold mode and the big blind's stack size probably would've made me favour folding (given that they're super-short and I'd feel really dumb if I got knocked out this hand letting someone with just 0.5bb cash). I can see the logic of ensuring the big blind gets crippled though so it's definitely something to think about... cheers :)
 
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I have to say I thought shove straight away, your low on chips and this may be the best hand you are going to get in a while. Although I have been in the position where I am on life support and next hand someone makes a crazy play and I end up getting into the money so a limp fold seems an intresting play and something I wouldnt have considered.

Out of intrest what is a instant shove here?
 
Jay_Are_Pee

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Ask yourself if your playing for the win or a min cash. If your playing for the min cash then fold. If you playing for the win then Jam(all in) more times then not you are ahead of both the SB and BB. You will sometimes lose but more times then not you will win in most situations.
 
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Ask yourself if your playing for the win or a min cash. If your playing for the min cash then fold. If you playing for the win then Jam(all in) more times then not you are ahead of both the SB and BB. You will sometimes lose but more times then not you will win in most situations.

So, is limp/(fold) a min cash or winning strategy?
 
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WiZZiM

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If the structure was heavily weighted towards the few tops spots like in a MTT then id probably agree shoving is better, But in a 9 man sng, the payouts are fairly flat, cashing is the long term winning strat...

As soon as the bubble burst 60% of the prize pool is given out. so no matter what anyone says, getting into the money has to be goal #1. next goal is winning. perhaps we don't give ourselves the best chance of winning here, but cashing is our goal, especially when short, with another shortstack present. And there is no reason to say that if we cash here, that we can't win, it's still possible, especially with escalating blinds, in that it only takes a double up or two.
 
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