Passive-aggressive HU play

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The_Pup

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I played a HU tourney tonight against a player who had me completely flummoxed. It was a $6.25, 4 player HU, winner takes all. I quickly won my first game, so I went to take a look at the other table to see how the other finalist would play. The game was odd. With average stacks of 1500 and blinds at 50/100 moving up to 200/400 every hand was limped by the button and both players pretty much checked to the showdown. Neither of them took the initiative: there was no raising preflop at all, and if anyone hit the board a min raise would get a fold. I watched both players limp with AJ+ hands and check to the river with quality made hands. The game ended when one player was blinded out and their Q7o fell to J8s.

So, I get to play the winner and it turns out they are the instigator of the weirdness. My initial strategy was to place value bets, lots of small pots and get fairly aggressive. The first thing I noticed was that the villain would limp a pot and check down as they had done previously - it was as if they had they 'auto fold' button ticked. But if I put in any bet they would call or even double it. Within ten hands or so I was down 2000/4000 as my value bets on flop or turn had been cracked by a river card. It continued like this for 15 minutes until I was dead.

A typical hand would be: I get QTs on button and raise; villain calls; villain auto checks flop; I bet half pot; villain calls; check, check, check, check to showdown and villain takes pot with K5o to a A7827 board. It went on and on like this, if I bet they called or raised, if I checked they checked. Common strategies such as raising from BB and betting any flop (which usually gets a fold 4/5 time) just didn't work; check raising wasn't an option as they didn't bet and any kind of bluff was out of the question.

The most exasperating thing was catching a bit of the flop (say Js8d to a 8h5hQh flop), value betting and getting raised an amount I couldn't call or a call that left me weak on the turn.

The question is, was I up against:
a) a computer program?
b) an idiot?
c) a genius on a level I don't understand?
d) someone having a laugh at lower stakes?
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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A couple of things to think about -

1. How often did you cbet oop and then check the turn?
2. How carefully were you looking at board texture when deciding to cbet?
3. How often did you check raise the flop?
4. Did you get any read of what kinds of hands villain favored under pressure?

Purely guessing, but he sounds like a passive player who understands that cbets don't mean a made hand, and that if there's little or no pressure after the flop, he can get to a relatively cheap showdown w a hand that probably has some equity (Kx on an Ahi small flop).
 
BeaverTrump

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I think it is a computer pragram)))))) but little chance that villion is stupid but he was unreal lucky in this game
 
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The_Pup

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I take your point, Slycbnew. I played properly the first ten hands or so - not always cbetting but check/raising, folding, calling etc on varying textures. ie mixing it up. But soon I was down a fair chunk and felt like a rabbit in the headlights - I don't think I played it that well as I was at a loss as to what to do!

Here's some of the villain's stats that might throw some light on the 37 hand game:

PF button: limp 17; open fold 1; reraise 1; called a raise 1; fold to raise 1; open raise 0.

Flop button: check 15: bet 1; raise 1; call 1; fold 1.

PF BB: call 5; check 5: fold 3; raise 1; reraise 2

Flop BB: check 6; call 3; bet 1; raise 2; fold 1.

What I find startling is how passive he was from the button. My own confused play shows up here I was very passive from the BB on the flop, but I just didn't feel I could push him off any hand if I didn't hit. The few times I tried I lost a fair slice of my stack.
 
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EvilEmperor

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Villain is simply a calling station. Simply value bet with made hands until he stops calling. Then start bluffing him until he starts calling light again. Repeat process. Also you have to throw in some double/triple barrels or you become too exploitable if villain is paying any attention.
 
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The_Pup

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Villain is simply a calling station. Simply value bet with made hands until he stops calling. Then start bluffing him until he starts calling light again. Repeat process. Also you have to throw in some double/triple barrels or you become too exploitable if villain is paying any attention.

You are quite right, Evil. I did value bet to begin with but he just wouldn't stop calling. The trouble with this player was that I couldn't put him on a hand (he had no range) and after playing properly for ten hands and losing half my stack to dumbass calls I didn't feel I could value bet my QJo into a JsTs7d flop OOP - hence all the checking nonsense.

I checked his stats and he has lost a ton of cash over the past year, so his strategy is obviously bad. However, he put me off my game so much that I wonder if there is something to be learnt here. Do you remember the Rumble in The Jungle when Ali leant back on the ropes and took everything Foreman threw at him? This felt like the poker equivalent. I tried the left hook, right upper cut, the old one-two but this fiicker just wouldn't go down. Could there be anything in the villain's rope-a-dope strategy as a way of throwing someone completely off their game?
 
slycbnew

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No, there's nothing to learn from his play. He's simply a loose passive calling station. You're not going to blow him off hands w aggression, and any time he plays back you have to fold without a strong hand - but that also means he'll call down w second pair/K high to your top pair.

When playing a guy like this, this should have an impact on the hands you choose to push w or call w preflop - you want hands that are likely to make top pair, these are the ones you should be pushing hard preflop. Avoid pushing hard pf w hands that are pretty but won't make top pair - 87s etc. - unless you're deepstacked. Obviously play Ax and Kx hands, connected broadways, T9, pairs, etc.

Playing passively in spots obv has a place, but not as a broad strategy, esp in HU which rewards aggression. A guy who plays like this is always going to be a long term loser - he'll win when he's lucky and his crap hands connect w the board, but over the long run...
 
flint

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I had a similar HU experience lately taking down a small tournament. I would raise something like 75% of my buttons and then c-bet from position and villain would almost always call. I thought this strategy was interesting especially since we were quite deep, but the fact that he played so much out of position means I have a huge advantage.

I guess the line I took would be to play the flop the same way, but have villain know that you bet the turn for value (although in reality, you check some turns for showdown value and bluff some turns when the texture is right).

Also have him out of position where you can decide how strong your hand is versus his range. Slow played big hands will cost him dearly when you hit a huge hand.
 
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EvilEmperor

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You are quite right, Evil. I did value bet to begin with but he just wouldn't stop calling. The trouble with this player was that I couldn't put him on a hand (he had no range) and after playing properly for ten hands and losing half my stack to dumbass calls I didn't feel I could value bet my QJo into a JsTs7d flop OOP - hence all the checking nonsense.

I checked his stats and he has lost a ton of cash over the past year, so his strategy is obviously bad. However, he put me off my game so much that I wonder if there is something to be learnt here. Do you remember the Rumble in The Jungle when Ali leant back on the ropes and took everything Foreman threw at him? This felt like the poker equivalent. I tried the left hook, right upper cut, the old one-two but this fiicker just wouldn't go down. Could there be anything in the villain's rope-a-dope strategy as a way of throwing someone completely off their game?

Playing against calling stations when you are card dead or get sucked out on is mega tilting. Same as min raisers or even worse someone who bets the minimum into a raised pot and then calls a pot sized bet. Bets the min on turn and again calls a pot sized bet. As much as I hate min raisers I've started to do it myself now just to try and tilt people. Once in a while I'll even min bet into raised pots just to mess with peoples heads a bit.

I don't really know what the equivalent of the rope-a dope strategy would be for poker. The closest would be letting someone push you out of a few pots so that they'll eventually bluff off their stack to you.

I think if you are on a tight table then open raising with total garbage and showing it down can get people to think of you as much looser than you really are. If you raise 93o and show it down then no matter how tight you play after that it'll always be in the back of their minds that you raised garbage once and you might be doing it again.
 
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volpereira

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I think he is a calling station.

In this situations, limp till U have a good hand, and then put pressure on him...

He was real lucky!
 
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Yeah there are players like that around. First thing is they don't like big raises, so if you're pretty sure they don't have a hand you can take away some big pots. If they DO call your big bets then it's not much of a problem because you just wait for a big hand (that's TP decent kicker or better) and value bet the hell out of them.

If you're running bad there's not much else you can do against them IMO.
 
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Thanks for the wise words all - I think I played him as well as I could but just got unlucky. I found betting for value against this character a killer without the (near) nuts. For example, in SB I got QJo and raised, he called. Flop came Qh7h2d. He checked, I bet pot, he called. Turn 8s, I bet pot he called; River Kh, he bet 2BB I called and he showed Kd6c. WTF?
 
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volpereira

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Lol.

So, he is a TOTAL Calling Station.

The biggest problem is: After the game the guy think he is a pro!
 
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Grinder101

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Thanks for the wise words all - I think I played him as well as I could but just got unlucky. I found betting for value against this character a killer without the (near) nuts. For example, in SB I got QJo and raised, he called. Flop came Qh7h2d. He checked, I bet pot, he called. Turn 8s, I bet pot he called; River Kh, he bet 2BB I called and he showed Kd6c. WTF?

That happens against those kind of players. Besides it's only 2BB :). If you want to reduce variance make your bets smaller, and even less on turn and river (I go for half the pot or a little more based on my cofidence in winning the hand). Throwing in a check is also a good way not to play monster pots with just top pair (you'll get sucked out on sometimes, so play them more conservatively). That's about it.

But lucky calling stations are nothing compared to lucky loose agressive players :)
 
flint

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The biggest problem is: After the game the guy think he is a pro!

Why is this a problem? I would love it if someone beat me with bad game and thought that he was a pro since I would know that his money is going back into circulation.

I think it would be a much bigger problem if he realized that he played bad, cashed out and quit.
 
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playerk7

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an idiot, he is waiting for a big hand and everytime he doesnt hit it he will give his chips away to you, this is a very good problem to have, raise alot prflop so he can pre call his chips away to you, and if he reraises respect it
 
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camptain

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I play a fair amount of HU. Although, many won't agree with me, I would advise a few random all in bluffs with king high just to keep him in check and show him you mean business. Even if he has you beat and calls you still always have close to 50% chance to win, worst around 30%.
 
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