to pair or not to pair?

AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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so ive been playing alot of tourneys lately mixed with my 2nl cash games, but i find myself folding pocket pairs in tourneys that i wouldnt in cash....for example say i get pocket 8's in early or mp i will let them go unless someone has limped in and im in mp, i might play them.....especially if i have a decent amount of chips i dont want to risk them with a low/medium pocket pair.....10's and higher i will come in for a raise x4 ep and x3 lp etc.......am i thinking correctly?.....in cash games i play every pocket pair in every positon.....obv i would rather be in late postion and have some fish open limp and i see the flop for cheap etc......thanks for reading
 
jaxpaboo

jaxpaboo

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Folding low pocket pairs is safe play. I would suggest making a standard 3x raise whether or not you are in mp or lp.

Also... are you overlimping with these pockets? Raise 3x or 4x in this spot (after one limper) and take it down with continuation bet on flop.
 
Suited Frenzy

Suited Frenzy

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Don't limp with pocket pairs. Especially if a person has limped in front of you like you said. Narrow the field down a bit. You don't want to give the players behind you good odds to get in cheap with their suited connectors and such.

If you hit a set on the flop, you want to get as much value out of the hand as possible. So you should always raise imo
 
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deeshark420

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If someone limps and you have a pocket pair low or not make a raise but dont damage your stack, you can always fold.9 times outa 10 a limper just wants to see if he can get a free chance at the board.never limp and always raise a limper. if re-raised easy fold.
 
NeverEnough

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I never fold a pocket pair like 8s in any position in my MTTs. I always raise with them pre-flop. If re-raised pre, then I may get out of the hand if I hold 88 or below. Depends on my read.
For example, yesterday I was in MP with 1010. EP player raises. Folds to me & I re-raise. I take down the pot. I wanted action, but I'll take a little vs losing chips.
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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thanks guys, i thought limping after an open limper with pocket pairs was standard?....i thought you would want as many people as possible in the pot if you hit a set with your pp....i never open limp anything, but i thought calling an open limper was fine....obv if you have a premium hand AA-JJ AK-10's then you would want to narrow the field but i thought it was the opposite for pp and suited connectors.....
 
Arjonius

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It's situational, with various factors that cam affect the decision including stack sizes, stack to pot ratio, the opponents' styles, position, tournament situation, and more.

As a relatively simple example, it can be far easier to call a bet with a small pp when you're deep-stacked than to limp with the same cards when doing so would take a larger proportion of your chips.
 
A2345Razz

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T here are times to limp with your PP, but you want to almost always be entering pots with raises, so I get where you are coming from generally...and this is good general advice.

If you have 33 and there are three limps and you are in lp...AND effective stacks are deep...go ahead and limp for instance the same way you would limp other speculative hands like 78ss or J10ss...

Since you mention value its important to understand value with sets usually means one of two things:

Playing against and overpair or TPTK and/or multiple opponents to juice the pot and raise the likelihood of someone flopping hard when you flop a set.

This is one of the few times you DONT necessarily want to thin the field.

Now with 99 in MP, its a completely different story....your dream should be playing the pot against one opponent in position in a raised pot.


Don't limp with pocket pairs. Especially if a person has limped in front of you like you said. Narrow the field down a bit. You don't want to give the players behind you good odds to get in cheap with their suited connectors and such.

If you hit a set on the flop, you want to get as much value out of the hand as possible. So you should always raise imo
 
dj11

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I think you are right in that how we play pairs in ring is different than how (and why) we play pairs in tourey's, and even that we play them different from STT to MTT's.

Money not lost is as good as money won.
 
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kevinluv

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NL poker is a positional game. in early - medium positions I routinely fold 22-99. however, if your table is weak and passive they are playable w. a flat call.
 
A2345Razz

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NL poker is a positional game. in early - medium positions I routinely fold 22-99. however, if your table is weak and passive they are playable w. a flat call.

If youre open folding 88/99 in MP that is too tight imho...all things being equal.

Flat calling with a PP without position/multiple limpers is a recipe for being isolated and exploited imho.

If first in with a hand like 88 in MP you bet your ass its a raise.
 
DaPirate

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Something that may come into play is what table image you have given the players. Have you been ultra aggressive or ultra passive? I do agree that limp here is probably not the right play..
 
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MAX101

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Yea, I'm with Alfie, I've always done the same thing, but after reading these threads and thinking about it, yep you are better off by raising,lol learn something new every day lol , thx!!!!
 
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lovesweetsin

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After playing last night in freerolls, I have pocket of 6, and in the flop there are 2 A's and and 10,i checked and the one on my left moved all in, i fold but the river card is six giving me a full, and he wins having a high card, by this I prefer calling even though you are having a small pairs.
 
TEG2300

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I have been noticing a lot of limping now that I have started playing some live tourneys. It is driving me insane. I mention this in the thread here because I think it applies. If a pot has been open limped then called I like raising out of principle every so often, so why wouldn't I with a PP? I also wonder if a starting range that strictly excludes 88-22 in MP is viable for tourney play. What do you guys think?
 
NeverEnough

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I have been noticing a lot of limping now that I have started playing some live tourneys. It is driving me insane. I mention this in the thread here because I think it applies. If a pot has been open limped then called I like raising out of principle every so often, so why wouldn't I with a PP? I also wonder if a starting range that strictly excludes 88-22 in MP is viable for tourney play. What do you guys think?
Leaving too much $ if you are not playing these hands in MP. Granted, there are times when folding is right, but not most times IMO.

For example, start of final table in a live MTT. Top 5 get paid. I get 66. I'm in early position. I folded them. Why? The guys at the table were hyper aggressive & most of them had me covered at that point. I felt 66 was not strong enough to play at the time. I did finish in 4th.
 
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MIShroomer47

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Situation is always concern with pocket pairs. I really don't like to open limp with them for obvious reasons. But you are correct in folding them in early position if you don't feel it's gonna be enough to be strong after a raise. I say it's a fold or raise. If someone re-raises you it's usually a no brainer (opponent depending of course) get out of the way. They're likely raising a stronger hand than you. I don't sweat mucking 6's or 7's in early position if i know it's a loose table. As another player said, they're gonna play their mid suited connectors (or worse haha) every time, and bust you up if you let them. So again, raise or fold depending on your tables action
 
vinylspiros

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MY opinion is if you get a low to mid pocket pair and u have a limper before u just flat call.thats what i would do. try to see a cheap flop if u hit then u get paid if u miss let it go .as simple as that.u want to be seeing flops with small pairs. but not too expensive ones.
 
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credsfan03

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A lot of times when I have a pocket pair and somebody limps I just limp behind them. I am going to start raising those pots. Thanks for your help guys.
 
TEG2300

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Yeah I think if I limp after another player has open limped with action behind me I have basically narrowed my ways to win the pot. Now I am left to either hit a set or turn my hand into a bluff if I am not raised out of the pot pre-flop. It could just be my style I tend to want to lead the action not follow. Of course there are situations where I know more about my opponents and change accordingly. I.E. last night in a live tourney I watched a guy open limp with KK, QQ, KK, in a span of around 20 hands. I flatted with a pair against him figuring if I hit my set I could stack off.
 
vinylspiros

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Yeah I think if I limp after another player has open limped with action behind me I have basically narrowed my ways to win the pot. Now I am left to either hit a set or turn my hand into a bluff if I am not raised out of the pot pre-flop. It could just be my style I tend to want to lead the action not follow. Of course there are situations where I know more about my opponents and change accordingly. I.E. last night in a live tourney I watched a guy open limp with KK, QQ, KK, in a span of around 20 hands. I flatted with a pair against him figuring if I hit my set I could stack off.
if u raise a limper from mid poition with a low to medium pair and u get reraised,ur in a really tough situation so id go for calling if it was a tourney and try to see the cheapest flop that i could.if it was cash i would definitely raise to see where im at and narrow the villains range a little bit.
 
NeverEnough

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if u raise a limper from mid poition with a low to medium pair and u get reraised,ur in a really tough situation so id go for calling if it was a tourney and try to see the cheapest flop that i could.if it was cash i would definitely raise to see where im at and narrow the villains range a little bit.
I agree with this strategy in MTT. I went against my own strategy the last MTT I played. Rather than just call with K10 (Not a PP, I know, but same idea) I decided it was a good spot to raise. Yea, I was called by more than one person and had to fold after the flop. :eek:
 
Jblocher1

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In that situation I raise to maybe 3x the big blind. Limping would be begging for a re raise and thats definitely not what u want with a pair like sevens' or eights. Narrow the field down to maybe one caller and try to continuation bet the flop
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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what happens when you are on the CO or BTN and someone has raised x3 then someone else has 3betted and you are looking down at 99?.....what do you do?....


or if someone has raised x3 before you everyone folds?....call, 3bet?
 
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doomasiggy

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what happens when you are on the CO or BTN and someone has raised x3 then someone else has 3betted and you are looking down at 99?.....what do you do?....


or if someone has raised x3 before you everyone folds?....call, 3bet?

Fold unless the open raiser is known for raising weak hands and peeling 3bets oop and our stack is deep enough to set mine.
 
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