Open Min Raise...Good or Bad??

ovitoo

ovitoo

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I've recently had a heated disagreement with a CC member (who I won't name) about a hand we're I opened for 3x w/ a 20bb stack from early position w/ JJ. His advice was that I should have opened for a min raise (2.1 2.2 as he put it). If you look at the situation in its entirety its a no brainer this was bad advice. But taking into consideration that he was look at it on a hand by hand basis I'm curious. I have a pretty firm opinion on the topic but I'm interested in others.
Is opening from any position, aside from hu (maybe even button), with a min raise an acceptable way to play?
 
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JusSumguy

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Depends on your table image.

If they're constantly folding to you, and you get a big PP, min raising might be just the ticket.

-
 
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Big_Rudy

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The smaller opening raises, as blinds get higher and effective stacks get smaller, is the new "thing". All the cool kids are doing it and more traditional 3x-3.5x open raises are viewed as "old fashioned" and wrong by those who follow the evolution of the game closely. Not saying I agree with it especially, or disagree with it either for that matter, just giving you a "heads-up" that raising smaller late in tournies is the "in" thing lately.
 
ovitoo

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Depends on your table image.

If they're constantly folding to you, and you get a big PP, min raising might be just the ticket.

-

good point. I have to admit I dont use the min-raise. But if it helps for this situation it was an mtt one before the money bubble and I was in the last cash spot
 
ovitoo

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The smaller opening raises, as blinds get higher and effective stacks get smaller, is the new "thing". All the cool kids are doing it and more traditional 3x-3.5x open raises are viewed as "old fashioned" and wrong by those who follow the evolution of the game closely. Not saying I agree with it especially, or disagree with it either for that matter, just giving you a "heads-up" that raising smaller late in tournies is the "in" thing lately.

Then I guess all I can do is hope to punish....or adapt (doubtful)
 
youregoodmate

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I like around 2.4 - 2.5 but I dont think 3x is too bad. Raises usually get respected the same deep in MTT's whether the raise is 2.2 or 3x

I dont think you should raise more from one position than another, the mian reason being a lot of people raise more when they are out of position which in a tournament is not advised. The idea is to keep pots small so that you rarely risk your stack.

As for your hand, why inflate the pot when you will likely be playing oop with a hand that will be tough to barrel/call with unimproved if overcards come. 2.5 may not seem like much less but think of it this way.

Say each street the bet is 75% of the pot.

Hero raises to 3BB gets one call. 7.5BB flop pot, 18.8BB turn pot, 46.9BB river pot, 117.2BB showdown pot.

Hero raises to 2.5BB gets one call. 6.5BB flop pot, 16.3BB turn pot, 40.6BB river pot, 101.5BB showdown pot

Hero raises to 2.2BB gets one call. 5.9BB flop pot, 14.8BB turn pot, 36.9BB river pot, 92.2BB showdown pot
 
BigCountryAA

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In larger MTT I bet 2.5 times the BB unless I'm first in on the button then it goes to 3 or even 4 depending on who's on the blinds.
 
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baudib1

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Don't open 3x ever after 25/50 blinds.
 
ovitoo

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I like around 2.4 - 2.5 but I dont think 3x is too bad. Raises usually get respected the same deep in MTT's whether the raise is 2.2 or 3x

I dont think you should raise more from one position than another, the mian reason being a lot of people raise more when they are out of position which in a tournament is not advised. The idea is to keep pots small so that you rarely risk your stack.

As for your hand, why inflate the pot when you will likely be playing oop with a hand that will be tough to barrel/call with unimproved if overcards come. 2.5 may not seem like much less but think of it this way.

Say each street the bet is 75% of the pot.

Hero raises to 3BB gets one call. 7.5BB flop pot, 18.8BB turn pot, 46.9BB river pot, 117.2BB showdown pot.

Hero raises to 2.5BB gets one call. 6.5BB flop pot, 16.3BB turn pot, 40.6BB river pot, 101.5BB showdown pot

Hero raises to 2.2BB gets one call. 5.9BB flop pot, 14.8BB turn pot, 36.9BB river pot, 92.2BB showdown pot

I will say I'm guilty of min-raising on button or sb if it folds around and i hold QQ or better.

Also, the pot sizing and play post flop is a different subject. I'm speaking solely on preflop play. I raise 3x for the simple fact that 2x is inticing the blinds to play. I kno most say "well you want action from worse hands". True. But good part of poker (especially mtts) is having some sort of range on your opp. Almost impossible to do so preflop if your inducing blinds in the pot with any 2.

Many advanced players are also more enticed to repop light after you open for min. A lot harder to do if you're opening for more.

Just my theory. Never read it anywhere, just my adaptation to results.

SPOILER ALERT: IF YOU MIN RAISE MY BB...MY RANGE IS WIDE OPEN LOL
 
youregoodmate

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I will say I'm guilty of min-raising on button or sb if it folds around and i hold QQ or better.

Also, the pot sizing and play post flop is a different subject. I'm speaking solely on preflop play. I raise 3x for the simple fact that 2x is inticing the blinds to play. I kno most say "well you want action from worse hands". True. But good part of poker (especially mtts) is having some sort of range on your opp. Almost impossible to do so preflop if your inducing blinds in the pot with any 2.

Many advanced players are also more enticed to repop light after you open for min. A lot harder to do if you're opening for more.

Just my theory. Never read it anywhere, just my adaptation to results.

SPOILER ALERT: IF YOU MIN RAISE MY BB...MY RANGE IS WIDE OPEN LOL

A loose call from the big blind is exactly what I want. Respect the raise, respect the position.
 
ovitoo

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A loose call from the big blind is exactly what I want. Respect the raise, respect the position.

NO RESPECT LOL. When I bust you with 24s I will apologize though bc I'm a nice guy.
 
jordanbillie

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Also calling a min raise from the BB with rags is lolbad.
 
ovitoo

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So I've gotten my answer...clearly I'm on different side of the fence. I have however, just got 3rd in my first CC tourny and 1st in my second (all while not min raising pre)

If it becomes a leak then I'll plug it. Thanks for the tips guys.
 
ovitoo

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Don't open 3x ever after 25/50 blinds.

Suprised to see, probably, the most educated player to post on this thread make such a flat statement.

Could you elaborate? Is it 2x or all in? 2x 5x or all in? fold or shove?
 
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baudib1

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Many advanced players are also more enticed to repop light after you open for min. A lot harder to do if you're opening for more.

If people are playing back light then jam it in their eye wide.
 
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baudib1

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Suprised to see, probably, the most educated player to post on this thread make such a flat statement.

Could you elaborate? Is it 2x or all in? 2x 5x or all in? fold or shove?

Depends on a lot of things, such as stack sizes and table dynamics.
 
Poker Orifice

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The smaller opening raises, as blinds get higher and effective stacks get smaller, is the new "thing". All the cool kids are doing it and more traditional 3x-3.5x open raises are viewed as "old fashioned" and wrong by those who follow the evolution of the game closely. Not saying I agree with it especially, or disagree with it either for that matter, just giving you a "heads-up" that raising smaller late in tournies is the "in" thing lately.
All the 'cool kids'? How about pretty much any decent player who's playing higher than micro buyins. (include in the 'cool kids' then > Daniel Negreanu, Eric Seidel & a gazillion other over 40 players, nevermind every single winning reg. online).
I was thinking of going into a bit of detail as to why this is preferred but then got to thinking > "Why? What do I want to do that for?" I guess if I felt like helping the person out & they seemed like they wanted to learn something I might do it. Right now though... meh, not so much.
(in short > Blue's right, you're wrong > 'gg' ;) )
 
ovitoo

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All the 'cool kids'? How about pretty much any decent player who's playing higher than micro buyins. (include in the 'cool kids' then > Daniel Negreanu, Eric Seidel & a gazillion other over 40 players, nevermind every single winning reg. online).
I was thinking of going into a bit of detail as to why this is preferred but then got to thinking > "Why? What do I want to do that for?" I guess if I felt like helping the person out & they seemed like they wanted to learn something I might do it. Right now though... meh, not so much.
(in short > Blue's right, you're wrong > 'gg' ;) )

THEN WHY THE F*** ARE YOU ON HERE.

Seriously, did you just hammered and get on cards chat and decide to give me shit on all my threads

Have some class.
 
JCgrind

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^ tbf youre asking for advice and want to know why 2-2.5BB opens > 3BB+, and when we tell you why, youre like "okay i get it, but im still not gunna do it"

w/e its up to you, but im telling you now opening 3BB or more in the mid-late stages of an MTT is bad. bigger risk, not what you want
 
ovitoo

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^ tbf youre asking for advice and want to know why 2-2.5BB opens > 3BB+, and when we tell you why, youre like "okay i get it, but im still not gunna do it"

w/e its up to you, but im telling you now opening 3BB or more in the mid-late stages of an MTT is bad. bigger risk, not what you want


I'm totally satisfied with the help. It was a genuine question. I especially like how you've put it.


But hopping on my thread about liking/disliking anon player to tell me how bad I am cause he came across some AK hand that I misplayed. And how I'm meant for a site thats "not even poker" cause I'm so bad.

He's just being a c=8. I can't believe I ever said nice things about him.
 
JCgrind

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tbh i only skimmed the thread, tl;dr esp while im grinding
 
ovitoo

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Are we all happy now. See..advice applied
 

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nmaher18

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Raises of about 2.5 are standard in todays mtt games cos people realised it gets the same job done as 3x with greater pot control. The problem with min raising from any position is it'll get no respect and therefore villain ranges are too wide and you're left guessing! Not good!!

I agree with jchoop on mid-late mtt play, obv depending on stack sizes and table image.
 
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