Open ended straights on the flop, go for?

I know that the odds of filling an open ended straight are 5:1, and I'm wondering if there's any point in calling anything but a basic limp bet on the flop with one in tournament play. Going through my stats, I see that I've had 10+ in the last day and not a single one filled. This tends to discourage me from bothering with them unless I can see the turn for peanuts. I think this may be a leak in my game and I am curious as to whether it is generally a good or bad idea to call raises with it, especially the 2.5-3BB variety.

It depends -

Your stack
Stage of tournament
Opponents tendencies
Pot Odds vs Outs (8)

BTW, after the flop your odds of getting that straight are better than 5-1 since there are two cards to come - you get two cracks at it - about 32% chance of succeeding.

If it's drawing to the nut straight I usually go for it if the odds are good. In a cheap multiway pot implied odds are good and so even if pot odds are wrong the implied usually make it ok to call. I tend not to draw to non-nutty straights as they can just cause trouble and the implied odds are worse (due to the times you're beaten by a higher straight).
I don't play straight draws in high blinds unless it's checked to me (as a general rule) as it can take a lot of my stack to call, so i'm usually not getting the implied or pot odds.

But yeah, the above post sums it up pretty well, a lot of factors other than stuff I mentioned effects the decision.

My biggest problem with these has been fairly early in the tourney with blinds at maybe 20/40 - 25/50 when someone raises 160-200. I'm still trying to grasp pot odds so I'm not sure if that is a call or fold. That size raise is fairly common at those levels, from what I've seen, with top pair.

Should I be betting a draw on the flop or checking it?

Brave_n_Crazy said:

My biggest problem with these has been fairly early in the tourney with blinds at maybe 20/40 - 25/50 when someone raises 160-200. I'm still trying to grasp pot odds so I'm not sure if that is a call or fold. That size raise is fairly common at those levels, from what I've seen, with top pair.

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Maybe post a hand history we can help you with, I don't understand the example you gave. Did they raise 160-200 pre or on the flop? If on the flop, what is the size of the pot already.

Should I be betting a draw on the flop or checking it?

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Oddly enough, I was going to start a thread asking about this today.
There are arguements for and against both.
Betting a straight or flush draw advantage:

1. Builds the pot to give a bigger payout when you hit.
2. Gives you two ways to win the pot (opponent folding, or you hitting on the next street).
3. Harder to put you on a hand range. If you always check draws or bet made hands, good opponents can exploit this (e.g giving you bad odds when you check or slowing down when they have a marginal hand and you bet).
4. If you miss you can try a (costly) bluff if you think your opponent will fold (as you have the image of having a decent hand).

Disadvantages of betting a straight or flush draw:

1. Opponent can re-raise meaning you've just invested a lot of chips without a made hand, and you'll probably have to fold.
2. If you miss and think your opponent won't fold, you've invested a lot without a hand with showdown value. You'd have to either check the river (knowing you're behind) or try a bluff which could likely be called.
3. Another one I can't think of ATM.

So I figure you'd have to play your image, your opponents tendancies, and your position.

If your opponent is passive calling station and you have a draw, it's probably better to check and get a free card. If you hit, go to value town.
If your opponent is aggressive and he checks the flop to you, you could check back to avoid him check-raising.
If your opponent is weak-tight, betting will usually take down the pot.

Anyone have more input because help is always appreciated in this area.

Brave_n_Crazy said:

My biggest problem with these has been fairly early in the tourney with blinds at maybe 20/40 - 25/50 when someone raises 160-200. I'm still trying to grasp pot odds so I'm not sure if that is a call or fold. That size raise is fairly common at those levels, from what I've seen, with top pair.

Should I be betting a draw on the flop or checking it?

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It's hard to say.... ie. when you're saying that someone raises to 160-200 you're leaving out info. (ie. how much is in pot? are you closing out the action? what's villain's image? what's your image? etc. etc. etc.)

Try posting some Hand History examples of when you've flopped an open-ended straight draw.

Brave_n_Crazy said:

My biggest problem with these has been fairly early in the tourney with blinds at maybe 20/40 - 25/50 when someone raises 160-200. I'm still trying to grasp pot odds so I'm not sure if that is a call or fold. That size raise is fairly common at those levels, from what I've seen, with top pair.

Should I be betting a draw on the flop or checking it?

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Yeah, that's probably a fold. Post a hand or two. You are paying way too much. Something like that is at best going to be 2-1 - you would have to pay 160 for the 320 that is already in the pot. Your odds of hitting your straight are worse than 2-1 so you fold.

But early in tournaments it's a better idea to just avoid hands like these that can get you in trouble, IMO.

MediaBLITZ said:

But early in tournaments it's a better idea to just avoid hands like these that can get you in trouble, IMO.

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This makes sense. I will tuck straight draws away for now. It didn't feel like I should be calling but I wasn't sure.

Don't throw away str8 draws especially if you have overs to the board just because it's "early" in tourney. If you are getting the pot odds and blinds are still low you shouldn't rule it out. And you should mix up your play and bet out with draws sometimes if you aren't doing that yet, mix up the amount you bet as well so opponents don't get an easy read on you.

Although this is not my thread thanks for the replies. It shed a whole lot of light on a weakness in my game.

implied odds are what you need to think about with your draws.

MediaBLITZ said:

Yeah, that's probably a fold. Post a hand or two. You are paying way too much. Something like that is at best going to be 2-1 - you would have to pay 160 for the 320 that is already in the pot. Your odds of hitting your straight are worse than 2-1 so you fold.

But early in tournaments it's a better idea to just avoid hands like these that can get you in trouble, IMO.

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Maybe i am missing something but this is really bad advise in nlh. early in a tournament with an open ended strait draw believing your opponent has top pair is a no brainier call. If you both have big stacks the implied odds are what matter not the pot odds.

It really depends on a lot more factors.

OP are you saying you have lost in the last 10 open ended straight draws you have played. that would be a problem unless you have always been in position and always called the 160 with a large stack. Then that is just a run of bad luck. But if you have lost 10 open ended straight draws maybe you should think of a simi bluff.

MediaBLITZ said:

BTW, after the flop your odds of getting that straight are better than 5-1 since there are two cards to come - you get two cracks at it - about 32% chance of succeeding.

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Not exactly. The 32% chance of hitting your OESD only applies if all the money goes in on the flop and their is no more betting on the turn because it's guaranteed that you will see the turn and river. If betting is still optional, then you can only play the odds of hitting your draw one at a time...or ~16% on the turn and slightly better on the river.

lol_username said:

Not exactly. The 32% chance of hitting your OESD only applies if all the money goes in on the flop and their is no more betting on the turn because it's guaranteed that you will see the turn and river. If betting is still optional, then you can only play the odds of hitting your draw one at a time...or ~16% on the turn and slightly better on the river.

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True dat. Guess I interpreted it as chasing the straight and a chase usually ends up going to the river if not all the way to showdown.

id fold here, but more often than not if an opponent was in this situation u see them calling and hittin their steaight so i dont know. Maybe waitin until u have reads on some off your opponents before you start making these calls. not so early in a tourney

Brave_n_Crazy said:

My biggest problem with these has been fairly early in the tourney with blinds at maybe 20/40 - 25/50 when someone raises 160-200. I'm still trying to grasp pot odds so I'm not sure if that is a call or fold. That size raise is fairly common at those levels, from what I've seen, with top pair.

Should I be betting a draw on the flop or checking it?

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What you should do really depends on several key factors.

1)Stack sizes compared to 160-200 bet.
2)Position (like always position is key)
3)who was first to bet
4)do you have more outs. Say over cards that could become top pair.
5)any back door flush or flush draws.
6)any pairs on board

There is never one solution to check, bet or call.

I love to simi bluff these situations but it does depend on who is at the table. Do not simi bluff a calling station. keep the pot small and they will call the larger bet when you hit. Tight/passive players are the best to simi bluff. Odds are they have to hit a second best monster to really start to move chips.

Really a lot more goes into this but these are the hands early in a tournament that give you the stack to go deep.

I try not to chase but if i'm up against someone who's super passive i'll probably just check it down and see what happens...

laidlow said:

I try not to chase but if i'm up against someone who's super passive i'll probably just check it down and see what happens...

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I like to bet against super passive. Super passive against nice size bet means fold or they have a monster. checking leaves me not knowing where i stand and they will only call or raise a large bet on the river with a monster. so if i hit my straight and the board pairs or i am on the idiot side i am not going to make any more money but will have a really tough call with the pot odds. I would rather take the pot now and say thank you or know i have to hit the nutts to put any more money in the pot.

I tend to have a look at what else is going on with the flop. For example, if there are two cards of the same suit on the flop, I try to work out if an opponent is chasing a flush or if I'm giving the impression that I'm the one chasing it. Obviously pots odds have a lot to do with deciding whether to chase the straight or not and also whether it's the nut straight. If I'm in position and someone c-bets at the flop, I tend to call to see the turn. By and large I find I can get away from this sort of hand without it crippling my stack. Like others have already said, so many things need to be taken into account like pot odds, position, stack size etc etc.