OK, interesting situation on the flop. To Cbet or not to Cbet??

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RyanB88

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Ok, the blinds are 1000/2000 w/250 ante. This is the FullTilt $3 rebuy $10,500 guarantee. I think at this point we have burst the bubble and are into the money, and we have 8 players at the table. It is folded to me sitting UTG+2 w/A10 spades, and 55k behind. I open to 4444, the next two players call with stacks of 99K and 55K respectively. Button folds and the two blinds fold. Here's the question...Flop comes 3 4 J rainbow, do I fire a Cbet into two players?? I now have 50K behind, the other two players have 94K and 50K. 18K in the pot, and this is a really dry flop. I really want to Cbet this. Against 1 caller there is no question I am Cbetting almost 100% of the time, but with two callers behind is it too risky to fire the Cbet? Let me know what you think?

Thanks!
 
xXSmuggla

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How have those players been playing? Have they often folded to a c-bet? or have you seen them try to re-steal? Because it is such a dry flop (34J) I would c-bet this about 3/4's the pot, You got out's with runner runners with the A-5 st8, and the 10-A st8. With two callers like you said it is risky to fire into two players OOP but at this stage in the tourny your goin for first place (since you already made ITM).
 
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I hate these situations. It's just too easy to get drawn into cbetting, turn betting and check/folding the river or hitting an A somewhere and running into a set.

If the PF raise was to steal blinds or get one blind caller, then it hasn't worked. I will be happy to abandon the hand on the flop with a check having done little damage to my stack. I would regard to 4444 chips as not entirely wasted as by checking and then folding to a bet I will get more respect for a cbet later and stand a better chance of inducing a bluff when I have a monster.
 
Egon Towst

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Depends on reads, imo.

I would suggest that your pre-flop raise was too weak. With antes in the pot, you are giving odds to a late-position player to come in with a very wide range indeed, and you can have no real idea what you are up against.

It`s interesting that the player in the cut-off didn`t three-bet. An aggressive player would do so with almost any two cards in this situation, I suggest. Therefore, unless he is weak-tight, he may easily be trapping with a big hand and you are stuffed.

Raise 9-10,000 preflop, then cbet, would be a better line. As played, check the flop and expect to have it taken away from you.
 
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I hate these situations. It's just too easy to get drawn into cbetting, turn betting and check/folding the river or hitting an A somewhere and running into a set.

If the PF raise was to steal blinds or get one blind caller, then it hasn't worked. I will be happy to abandon the hand on the flop with a check having done little damage to my stack. I would regard to 4444 chips as not entirely wasted as by checking and then folding to a bet I will get more respect for a cbet later and stand a better chance of inducing a bluff when I have a monster.


Pup I like your analagy (sp?). In this situation, I'm def not disappointed to just take down the blinds, but it is also a strong hand middle position that I don't mind taking a flop against 1 player. I think you are right though, with two players behind they could be trapping with a really strong hand, set mining, or there are just a lot of Jacks in their range. Probably the best play is check and give up to a bet. Thanks for your input!
 
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Depends on reads, imo.

I would suggest that your pre-flop raise was too weak. With antes in the pot, you are giving odds to a late-position player to come in with a very wide range indeed, and you can have no real idea what you are up against.

It`s interesting that the player in the cut-off didn`t three-bet. An aggressive player would do so with almost any two cards in this situation, I suggest. Therefore, unless he is weak-tight, he may easily be trapping with a big hand and you are stuffed.

Raise 9-10,000 preflop, then cbet, would be a better line. As played, check the flop and expect to have it taken away from you.

Egon I can't agree with you at all. This late in the tourney raising that much pre is a terrible idea. If I raise 10k and only get 1 caller, I'm left with a 45k stack and a 25k pot, which is really ugly. I can't cbet that at all, unless I'm commiting my stack. Raising 4-5x pre is an amateur play that blows off way to many chips when you are behind, and doesn't get any callers when you are ahead.
 
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Egon I can't agree with you at all. This late in the tourney raising that much pre is a terrible idea. If I raise 10k and only get 1 caller, I'm left with a 45k stack and a 25k pot, which is really ugly. I can't cbet that at all, unless I'm commiting my stack. Raising 4-5x pre is an amateur play that blows off way to many chips when you are behind, and doesn't get any callers when you are ahead.


I do appreciate your input tho Egon, but I highly suggest you check out some pokersavvy videos and possibly rail some of the top online players.
 
Egon Towst

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Raising 4-5x pre is an amateur play.

My apologies. I had misread the blind level, typing here rapidly while multi-tabling. I meant to suggest that the raise should be 3x BB or a tad more.


I do appreciate your input tho Egon, but I highly suggest you check out some pokersavvy videos and possibly rail some of the top online players.

Lol. Ryan, I am one of the more heavyweight MTT players here. Your $3 rebuy is small beer to me, though I understand your reaction, in view of my typo. :)
 
PattyR

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My apologies. I had misread the blind level, typing here rapidly while multi-tabling. I meant to suggest that the raise should be 3x BB or a tad more.




Lol. Ryan, I am one of the more heavyweight MTT players here. Your $3 rebuy is small beer to me, though I understand your reaction, in view of my typo. :)

^Egon is a Beast of the MTT's :D

and i like beer, had my last final tonight, drinkin my life away weeeeee
 
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My apologies. I had misread the blind level, typing here rapidly while multi-tabling. I meant to suggest that the raise should be 3x BB or a tad more.




Lol. Ryan, I am one of the more heavyweight MTT players here. Your $3 rebuy is small beer to me, though I understand your reaction, in view of my typo. :)


Ha ok, understandable :) Where you play at and what's your screen name?
 
Egon Towst

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Where you play at and what's your screen name?

I am Egon Towst (same as here) at bodog. If you have access to one of the player tracking sites, you should be able to see that I have final-tabled Bodog`s Sunday $100k three times in recent months. I use other names on other sites.

If you are interested in my MTT style, you`ll find an example of my thinking in this thread.

You will appreciate that I am not very keen on listing all my screen names, precisely because I sometimes write large amounts of stuff here about my MTT strategies. It would make me very exploitable if Googlers could link from my screen name back to my strategy.
 
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I am Egon Towst (same as here) at Bodog. If you have access to one of the player tracking sites, you should be able to see that I have final-tabled Bodog`s Sunday $100k three times in recent months. I use other names on other sites.

If you are interested in my MTT style, you`ll find an example of my thinking in this thread.

You will appreciate that I am not very keen on listing all my screen names, precisely because I sometimes write large amounts of stuff here about my MTT strategies. It would make me very exploitable if Googlers could link from my screen name back to my strategy.

Egon just wondering do you ever play on ps or tilt maybe ftops or scoops or do you see the bigger fields as something you cannot deal with timewise or is it a case of playing games that you expect to be higher EV on other sites?

Also I right now am in possesion of egg on toast :D not for long though..........
 
Egon Towst

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I don`t particularly like large fields, because of higher variance and greater time required. I therefore don`t play at Stars at all and not regularly at Tilt. I prefer tourneys with fewer than 500 entrants, and they are usually found at the medium-sized sites and the mid or high buyins.

As an example, I am at this very moment playing the final table of a $22 MTT at Felt Stars (ie. Merge network). I can give you the tourney ID if anyone wants to rail. I am not expecting to win it, though. The chipleader has a monster stack. :(
 
Egon Towst

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Finished 2nd, probably the best I could have expected in the circumstances. :)

I`m off to watch the UK election results now. Gnight all.
 
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This is an easy check/fold, the fact that you got called and are left to play OOP for the rest of the hand is very handicaping. Unless your opponents are REALLY weak you don't want to cbet here.
Besides you didn't lose much, if you had a call in the BB then almost always cbet to a check, UTG there's not much you can do. Your PF raise was fine, but you know you're going to have callers.
 
cjatud2012

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and i like beer, had my last final tonight, drinkin my life away weeeeee

Aghhhh, not fair, my last day of finals is May 26th... grrr

And yes, Egon = teh tourney zen master.
 
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Finished 2nd, probably the best I could have expected in the circumstances. :)

I`m off to watch the UK election results now. Gnight all.

Sorry I missed it was donking away in the scoop lol.
 
twoturntablez

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Just had a read of that strategy Egon and see myself in those positions, against those kinds of opponents. Its like a train at the table that gathers momentum and builds a stack while the rest of the table shies away or has a premium hand. Guess I need to become the train a bit more often instead of watching it dissapear with my blinds. Nice article.
 
Poker Orifice

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Depends on reads, imo.

I would suggest that your pre-flop raise was too weak. With antes in the pot, you are giving odds to a late-position player to come in with a very wide range indeed, and you can have no real idea what you are up against.

It`s interesting that the player in the cut-off didn`t three-bet. An aggressive player would do so with almost any two cards in this situation, I suggest. Therefore, unless he is weak-tight, he may easily be trapping with a big hand and you are stuffed.

Raise 9-10,000 preflop, then cbet, would be a better line. As played, check the flop and expect to have it taken away from you.

You're kidding right?
I think the preflop raise was fine. I'd cbet this flop the majority of the time (a Q & 2 low, or a J & 2 low are great flops to cbet).
didn't read thru all the posts to see where you'd said you'd made a typo. Curious... what blind levels were you assuming to suggest 9 or 10k pre??
 
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fletchdad

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If you are interested in my MTT style, you`ll find an example of my thinking in this thread.

Ive read it before, and just read it again, and will keep this thread in my subscriptions, cause I want to read it again.

Good stuff.

Egon ( I liked the Egg on Toast from MR.Mc..lol) I have a question. Well actually about 5oo but I will take it slow...
I play mainly Sng and MTT, and have a hard time changing gears sometimes, like when I have played 8-10 Sngs in a row and then enter a MTT.
Is there a good strategy comparison, either in a book or internet articles?
I have read SnG strategy and all 3 Harrington on Hold em, Sklanskis Theory of Poker among others. I play MTTS like an SnG mainly, and I guess I need to re read HoH. I make final table often enough to feel ok about my playing, but I am almost always one of the smallest stacks, so I am getting there but getting there wrong. I am kinda rambling here, and also derailing this thread, but can you suggest more reading material, and any comments and thread links etc would be mucho appreciated.

OK more than one question there, and sorry for the derail......

Edit: I said I reach final table enough, sorry, I mean breaking the bubble enough. I am ITM, but rarely top paid places. FT but NOT often enough. Small stacked after bubble. Sorry for the mix up.
 
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lektrikguy

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I like egg on toast-must be a negative UK thing...and as for Egon-he knows what he's talking about. He has many great posts here-you should spend some time searching and reading as many of us have.
 
fletchdad

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I like egg on toast-must be a negative UK thing...and as for Egon-he knows what he's talking about. He has many great posts here-you should spend some time searching and reading as many of us have.

I have found quite a few already (and have em bookmarked),
and even tho I am a yank, I like egg on toast too.......
 
Egon Towst

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what blind levels were you assuming to suggest 9 or 10k pre??

I believe I thought the BB was 3000, therefore I was suggesting a pf raise of ~3x BB. There are antes in the pot, and a smaller than standard raise will present good pot odds to following players to call. Effective stacks do not appear to be short enough to discourage them. Our Ace-Ten is not a sufficiently strong hand that we would be happy to play against multiple callers.


I have read SnG strategy and all 3 Harrington on Hold em, Sklanskis Theory of Poker among others. .......... but can you suggest more reading material

One of my personal favourites is The Poker Tournament Formula by Arnold Snyder. Snyder advocates a more loose-aggressive approach than Harrington, and this forms a useful contrast, arguably more in line with the way the game is played today (not that there is anything wrong with Harrington, of course, and that is still the basic primer for any MTT player).

I can`t claim any expertise in STT/SNGs, I`m afraid. I haven`t played them regularly for 3-4 years, and I`m aware that the cutting-edge tactics which were easily succesful then (mega-tight early, loose-aggressive at higher blinds and on the bubble) would be considered standard now and unlikely to surprise any competent opponent.
 
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