Ok, gimme all yer strats for winning this thing

dmorris68

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Won a satty tonight that registered me in WCOOP-21 $215 NLHE $1.5M Guarantee on 9/12.

I know full well the odds will be against me. But then again a year ago I took down a $25K Guarantee on FT and I think my game has improved greatly since (which may not be a good thing, lol. Yay for dumb luck!).

So... by online standards this is a slow tourney, pretty much like a big live event. 10K starting stack, 20 minute blinds, antes start at level 4. I know the optimal strategy is different than a typical fast online tourney. I've played in a few live tourneys but never this deep or this high, and they were mostly your typical casino fish. I know there will be a lot of satty fish (like me!) in it too, so my plan first and foremost is to take a very slow small-ball approach starting out.

So, you MTT wunderkinds, what do you suggest I do to bone up for this in case I do go through with playing it? Read HoH again? LOL.
 
straytfrush

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Congrats on the sat win. How difficult was it? I was thinking about just buying into the $215 2 mil gauranteed on september 5th. If it wasn't too bad maybe i'll take a few stabs at these qualifiers.

I'm but no means a pro at MTTs but they are what I play besides a few SnGs and I manage to make a relatively nice profit (at least for a college student). In tournaments where you start with such large stacks you can afford to wait for cards for a long time. There is no rush to play subpar hands that can get you into trouble, however with such large stacks suited connectors and pocket pairs may give you great implied odds if you can hit the right board. As far as reading is concerned I found HoH to be a bit of a letdown there wasn't too much I didn't already know. I have heard that Sklansky's book is a great read, and may help against the caliber of player you will encounter in such a big tournament.
 
fletchdad

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Grats David!!!!!! Nice one. I think your first step - asking here - will eventually give you lots of avenues to travel, with probably not near enough time to do everything suggested....lol. Being very fishy myself, I think a advice from me is not what will help you TID. I have heard of 2 different series of books that are very popular from what I have read for the present more aggresive tournament style play. It is probably way too little time to digest the info but maybe it could help. You may know these already anyhow.
Winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time by Rizen, apestyles and PearlJammer

The poker tournament formula I + II from Andrew Snyder

I have only read the first 1/4 to 1/5 of winning poker tournaments vol 1 and have ordered the other, dont have em yet, so cant make a real comment on how helpful they may be, but have read mainly positive thing about both. (I found what I have read so far to be very insightful, seems to be a great read)

Was reading an article today about a player who mentioned how important stack sizes - yours and the players you are in a hand with - are in later MTT play, something I dont think about enough. Just thought I would mention that, sorry my post is so vague, but I better leave concrete advice to those who can competently give it.

Good luck, and TID!!!!
 
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im pulling for u big time. im not gonna be on the chat there but ill try to watch a lil. i want u to do very well.

on a side note, since ppl have really been bringing this up recently and i know ur probably gonna disagree. .. . . i know i know lololol, but just consider it.

if u find urself at a table when ur a medium to big stack at a table with the blinds relative low to ur stack and besides there being maybe 1 or 2 other large stacks at the table just consider not playing the other big stacks in a huge pot risking ur tourn life and fed off the smaller chip stacks even when the odds are on ur side.


wish u the best
GL
 
dmorris68

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Thanks all.

I guess like most semi-serious players with a book fetish, I'm pretty well read on textbook tourney strategies. Most all of this stuff I know, but it's good to get reinforcement since I seldom play in these types of deepstacked/slow formats and so I only read about it.

Another thing I want to do is study up on my tourney play. I've had HEM for a long time and use it occasionally to study my game, but not nearly as much as I should. I'm especially looking for tips on MTT leak finding using HEM.

Congrats on the sat win. How difficult was it? I was thinking about just buying into the $215 2 mil gauranteed on september 5th. If it wasn't too bad maybe i'll take a few stabs at these qualifiers.
Pretty easy IMO. It only cost 500FPP's and there were only 61 registered. It was my 2nd attempt. My first attempt a couple days ago was a 500FPP rebuy into a $320 event and I bubbled it, lol. There are a few very good players sprinkled in the field, and not surprisingly these are mostly who you're battling at the final table, but the vast majority were total donks. When we got down to about 5 handed on this one, I think we all traded stacks about 4-5 times each, lol. I was 2nd, I was last, I was 1st, I was middle... it was crazy. We were all short relative to the blinds by then and so it was just finding the right spots to shove.

If I were you I'd definitely risk a few FPP's on one of these satellites before I'd drop $215 on one. And considering how soft and cheap/free these are, I wouldn't recommend the $75 satty into the same event -- I expect the field there to be much tougher.

In tournaments where you start with such large stacks you can afford to wait for cards for a long time. There is no rush to play subpar hands that can get you into trouble, however with such large stacks suited connectors and pocket pairs may give you great implied odds if you can hit the right board.
Yep, I agree. Pretty standard for deep stacked, slow tournaments. It will be a bit of an adjustment from the fast style I'm accustomed to, though. Hopefully I won't get too impatient.

As far as reading is concerned I found HoH to be a bit of a letdown there wasn't too much I didn't already know. I have heard that Sklansky's book is a great read, and may help against the caliber of player you will encounter in such a big tournament.
I think HoH is much more suited to this type of tournament than your everyday online MTT. We're not talking a super slow 60 minute level tourney like a live Main Event but 20 minute blinds in online play is forever. So I may give it a quick re-read. Never did pick up Sklanksy's tournament book because I also figured it would be a bit dated as well and not apply to online tourney's as much either.

Arnold Snyder's Poker Tournament Formula books are quite good. Vol I deals specifically with fast tourneys that I would normally be playing. Vol II deals with big, slow tourneys so I put it down after the first chapter. Looks like a good time to pick it back up.

I have heard of 2 different series of books that are very popular from what I have read for the present more aggresive tournament style play. It is probably way too little time to digest the info but maybe it could help. You may know these already anyhow.
Winning poker tournaments - one hand at a time by Rizen, apestyles and PearlJammer

The poker tournament formula I + II from Andrew Snyder

I have only read the first 1/4 to 1/5 of winning poker tournaments vol 1 and have ordered the other, dont have em yet, so cant make a real comment on how helpful they may be, but have read mainly positive thing about both. (I found what I have read so far to be very insightful, seems to be a great read)
I have both volumes of both of those books. TPTF Vol I is great for fast online MTTs. Vol II is geared towards these type of deepstacked slow formats, which is why I put it down once I realized that. Now I'll obviously be picking it up again to see what I can gather from it. I'm about 1/3 way through One Hand at a Time Vol I, with Vol II on hand as well.

Was reading an article today about a player who mentioned how important stack sizes - yours and the players you are in a hand with - are in later MTT play, something I dont think about enough. Just thought I would mention that, sorry my post is so vague, but I better leave concrete advice to those who can competently give it.

Good luck, and TID!!!!
Yeah that's a crucial aspect of the game that I'm familiar with. With standard online MTTs I'm pretty comfortable with my game. I'm no baller by any means but my online MTT/SnG wins have allowed me to withstand a $2200 cash downswing, take a couple of vacations, and still be well in the black. :) I'm just not used to playing this type of event, so I'm looking for any advice, especially from those who've gone deep in them before.

if u find urself at a table when ur a medium to big stack at a table with the blinds relative low to ur stack and besides there being maybe 1 or 2 other large stacks at the table just consider not playing the other big stacks in a huge pot risking ur tourn life and fed off the smaller chip stacks even when the odds are on ur side.

wish u the best
GL
Thanks. Yeah I always look out for the big stacks at my table and try not to tangle with them without the goods, no matter which format I'm playing. That will be even more critical in a game like this, I imagine.
 
xdeucesx

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this is kinda amateurish haha but maybe you could like play in some big mtt's for micro stakes? I know the play between the two is a completely different game, but just to get you a feel for it, mess around in one of those haha
 
dmorris68

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this is kinda amateurish haha but maybe you could like play in some big mtt's for micro stakes? I know the play between the two is a completely different game, but just to get you a feel for it, mess around in one of those haha
I'm not new to MTTs. I've been playing them for years at higher than the micro-stakes. Comparing a tourney like this to a micro-stakes MTT would be like comparing go-fish with hold'em. Which is why I'm asking for feedback from anybody who has gone deep or even played in these high-buyin, slow-paced, deep-stacked formats.
 
WVHillbilly

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It's a tourney, mash buttons > get lucky > ship the nickels.

Seriously gl.
 
dj11

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Re-reading HoH will NOT hurt at all.
 
xdeucesx

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hence the "amateur" part haha
 
bonflizubi

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just be patient. you could fold for 5 hours and still have 50bb in this thing.

Also, use OPR or pokerdb to find out who is at your table. Are they internet studs or satty fishes. play at them appropriately.

Lastly, best book i ever read that gave me a clue for playing superdeep was actually gus Hansen's. It finally gave me the old lightbulb about what hands to play when you are sitting on 500BB. (basically, speculate liberally since the implied odds are so ridiculous)
 
dmorris68

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It's a tourney, mash buttons > get lucky > ship the nickels.

Seriously gl.

Pretty much. All op needs to worry about is running like god.

GL though.

Thanks, guys. Expert advice as usual, what would we do without you around here? :p ;)

I've had my brief moments of run goot. The trick is to time it just right for this, lol.

just be patient. you could fold for 5 hours and still have 50bb in this thing.

Also, use OPR or pokerdb to find out who is at your table. Are they internet studs or satty fishes. play at them appropriately.

Lastly, best book i ever read that gave me a clue for playing superdeep was actually gus Hansen's. It finally gave me the old lightbulb about what hands to play when you are sitting on 500BB. (basically, speculate liberally since the implied odds are so ridiculous)
Thanks, that's what I'm looking for. I've rarely scoped someone at the table (usually only to call out an idiot that runs his mouth about his non-existent skills, but I've matured beyond that now, heh). But with a field this large and with so many high-stakes players in it...

I've almost picked up Gus' book a couple of times, but always put it down for a more strategic book, thinking Gus' was more of just a historical account of his Aussie win that would be an interesting read later when I wasn't in study mode. But you're right, it probably does offer some insight into playing a big event that could be used for something like this. Guess that's the next one I'll be grabbing.

I still haven't decided whether I'll play this thing or not. Common sense tells me to cash out the T$ and play in a lot of smaller events & SnGs where I normally play and do okay in -- chances are I'll turn a reliable profit. But then again I'd love to take a shot at a big game like this that I'd normally never even consider buying in to. I've got essentially a free shot at it, so it's tough to not try it.
 
Rldetheflop

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Thanks, guys. Expert advice as usual, what would we do without you around here? :p ;)

I've had my brief moments of run goot. The trick is to time it just right for this, lol.


Thanks, that's what I'm looking for. I've rarely scoped someone at the table (usually only to call out an idiot that runs his mouth about his non-existent skills, but I've matured beyond that now, heh). But with a field this large and with so many high-stakes players in it...

I've almost picked up Gus' book a couple of times, but always put it down for a more strategic book, thinking Gus' was more of just a historical account of his Aussie win that would be an interesting read later when I wasn't in study mode. But you're right, it probably does offer some insight into playing a big event that could be used for something like this. Guess that's the next one I'll be grabbing.

I still haven't decided whether I'll play this thing or not. Common sense tells me to cash out the T$ and play in a lot of smaller events & SnGs where I normally play and do okay in -- chances are I'll turn a reliable profit. But then again I'd love to take a shot at a big game like this that I'd normally never even consider buying in to. I've got essentially a free shot at it, so it's tough to not try it.


I am not sure I could look at it as a free shot, more like a had a super good day and now if I play and dont cash I am back where I started. Because the T$ is money if you are gonna play that much in tourneys anyway.

As for me personally it would be a painful decision. Not sure what I would do.

I wish you luck no matter what you decide.
 
Poker Orifice

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Forget about the money (don't even think about it while playing... look at it as if it's a video game).
I'd read the two books "Winning Poker Tournaments - One Hand At A Time" Vol.1 & 2 (and not bother reading anyother books... as I think it'd be wasted time).
Watch a few vids. of good tourney regs. going deep in big online MTTs.

For sure use something like OPR or Topshark to get a basic read on players on your table.... is that a tourney reg. 3-betting you light... or is it a satty player with AA/KK.

Lastly... >> 'Take your time'

Oh yah... & "GL"
 
dmorris68

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Forget about the money (don't even think about it while playing... look at it as if it's a video game).
That's almost always my approach. At least until the bubble, lol. I have a feeling that if I'm fortunate enough to approach a serious payout level (like 5 figures+), I'll be too giddy. Good thing microphones aren't tied in to the poker client, heh.

I'd read the two books "Winning Poker Tournaments - One Hand At A Time" Vol.1 & 2 (and not bother reading anyother books... as I think it'd be wasted time).
Have them both, and am currently about 1/3 way through Vol 1.

Thing is, I'm not sure I like looking to these hand example type of books for strategy in a tourney like this. With few exceptions where successive hands are discussed, each hand is reviewed in a vaccuum, from a wide variety of tournament formats. While great for analyzing how the pros play a specific holding in a specific situation, how many times are you going to find yourself in that situation in one given tourney? I can't help but think I should be focusing more on reinforcing overall tournament strategy for a tourney of this format, rather than a hand-by-hand review, but I could certainly be wrong. More feedback on the reading angle is certainly appreciated...

Watch a few vids. of good tourney regs. going deep in big online MTTs.
I plan to do this. Since Stox closed down, I've not been a paying member of any coaching sites, but have been strongly considering joining DTB. Just not sure what their MTT strength is though. Maybe a month of CR? I do have a big collection of videos I saved from my Stox membership, but while there I wasn't playing MTTs to speak of, so didn't grab all that much MTT video. And yes, before someone asks, I can still watch my Stox vids -- I snagged the Flash versions, which were DRM-free. ;)

For sure use something like OPR or Topshark to get a basic read on players on your table.... is that a tourney reg. 3-betting you light... or is it a satty player with AA/KK.

This I'm considering doing more and more. I just had some "ethical" qualms about it at first.

Lastly... >> 'Take your time'

Oh yah... & "GL"
Thanks, and I certainly do plan to take my time. Although it's going to be a test, because I have a feeling it could be hours between solid hands, and my impatience is liable to get the better of me.
 
bonflizubi

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This I'm considering doing more and more. I just had some "ethical" qualms about it at first.

considering OPR usage is permitted by stars, there are NO ethical issues. Those that don't want their stars results on OPR can opt out easily.

When it comes time to play the thing, in the end it's just another tourney. Don't overthink this at all.

ANd in terms of reviewing strategy you might want to think about deepstack cash strategy more than tny strategy, since it will play quite deepstacked for a long time and I'd bet you aren't that accustomed to playing a couple hundred BB deep for hours.

ANd on the tny books... they are hands in a vacuum, but they are really talking about how to get max value, how to play pot control, and how to toss a hand. THose are pretty fundamental items.
 
dmorris68

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considering OPR usage is permitted by stars, there are NO ethical issues. Those that don't want their stars results on OPR can opt out easily.
I knew about the opt-out but didn't realize Stars allowed OPR while playing -- I was under the impression that looking up anybody in-game was a no-no outside of the hands you had played against them. Thanks for this!

When it comes time to play the thing, in the end it's just another tourney. Don't overthink this at all.
Noted.

ANd in terms of reviewing strategy you might want to think about deepstack cash strategy more than tny strategy, since it will play quite deepstacked for a long time and I'd bet you aren't that accustomed to playing a couple hundred BB deep for hours.
Interesting approach, but makes sense. I used to multi-table the deepstacked 50NL tables at FT with a full 200bb BI, as a way to get away from the short-stackers. After FT released the SS tables I went back to the standard 100bb tables. So I do have some deepstack experience, but I'm sure the level of play here is going to be much higher especially if I go deep.

ANd on the tny books... they are hands in a vacuum, but they are really talking about how to get max value, how to play pot control, and how to toss a hand. THose are pretty fundamental items.
Yeah, I do realize that. I do find value in them as a study guide, I guess I was just looking more for a roadmap through the stages and stack sizes of a big event like this, rather than random hand examples covering a wide range of situations. If the One At A Time books were organized by levels and stack sizes it would be a better study guide for something like this (for me anyway) but I will of course continue reading them because like you say they do offer some great insight into how to play specific hands.

I had put down Snyder's The Poker Tournament Formula Vol 2 precisely because it's focus was slow, deepstacked tournaments which I never play, LOL. So this looks like a good opportunity to look over it. I thought Vol 1 was a very good guide to fast tourney's, so hopefully Vol 2 will give me something to think about for these.

At the end of the day, though, huge MTTs have a correspondingly huge luck factor. Of course that luck can go either way. Still I'd like to know I did all I could to increase my edge and minimize my bad luck.

Thanks again for the tips, keep 'em coming!
 
Poker Orifice

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Read further into the book... it gets to a section of a bunch of hands played in succession 'approaching the bubble & bubble play'. Also, there's such a huge assortment of hands in Vol.1 that it hits all stages of play and the hand examples they use in that book cover a wide variety of situations. I think its extremely useful. Also, Vol.2 is for play after the bubble... mostly concerning stack size considerations < but this is a huge leak for many.

I don't think it took me more than 3days to go through that book (vol1) the first time... it's the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th times that have taken longer. I guess not all are the same as me... I pick something up & end up going with it... all or nothing (books don't last long). I think I'm an addict, lol.
 
dmorris68

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Read further into the book... it gets to a section of a bunch of hands played in succession 'approaching the bubble & bubble play'. Also, there's such a huge assortment of hands in Vol.1 that it hits all stages of play and the hand examples they use in that book cover a wide variety of situations. I think its extremely useful. Also, Vol.2 is for play after the bubble... mostly concerning stack size considerations < but this is a huge leak for many.

I don't think it took me more than 3days to go through that book (vol1) the first time... it's the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th times that have taken longer. I guess not all are the same as me... I pick something up & end up going with it... all or nothing (books don't last long). I think I'm an addict, lol.
I know what you mean -- I'm a bookworm myself and have the sagging bookshelves and stuffed boxes to prove it, lol. But lately between work, family, and poker, I don't have as much uninterrupted reading time as I used to. Magazine subscriptions I've maintained for over a decade have lapsed, books that I buy are starting to pile up unread, etc. I read a few minutes in bed, a few *ahem* "taking care of business," a few while waiting for the wife to shop, etc. The majority of my reading is now done in bed, but I go to bed so late that it amounts to 5-15 minutes of reading at a time. So it takes me a lot longer than it used to, to get through an entire book. I used to read any book from cover to cover in just 1-3 sessions maybe, but I just can't allocate that much time in one stretch any more.

I will stick with these One Hand at a Time books though and do as much prep as I can in the next couple of weeks before this tourney. I'll wait until the last minute before deciding on whether to play or take the T$, but until then I'm going to try and prepare as if I'll play.

As bonflizubi suggested, I'm trying not to over-think/over-prepare and thus disrupt my regular game, which I don't think is too bad as it is. But at the same time I want to do what I can to maximize my potential.
 
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One of the most important things in the higher buy-in events is to find out which players are from qualifiers since they tend to be tighter and are very bluffable. Your fold equity against these players is super high.

In deep stacked tournaments with slowly escalating blinds you should play a decent amount of hands and take down lots of small pots with very little risk.

Also you want to keep an active image so when you do look down at a monster, someone will give you action.
 
Ice Wolf

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just be patient. you could fold for 5 hours and still have 50bb in this thing.
Holy chit that makes for one loooonnnnnggggg arse online tournament. Never played in anything higher than a $10 buyin so I never come close to playing in anything this big though.
 
dmorris68

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One of the most important things in the higher buy-in events is to find out which players are from qualifiers since they tend to be tighter and are very bluffable. Your fold equity against these players is super high.

In deep stacked tournaments with slowly escalating blinds you should play a decent amount of hands and take down lots of small pots with very little risk.

Also you want to keep an active image so when you do look down at a monster, someone will give you action.
All of that makes perfect sense, thanks. I have evolved my tourney game from being a complete nit at the start, to seeing a lot of cheap flops early on, especially with good implied odds hands. 500bb deep I do plan to see a lot of cheap flops, but have to make sure not to try and get clever and take things too far. Even when I hit, unless it's the immortal nuts or nearly so, I would practice pot control as much as possible.

Holy chit that makes for one loooonnnnnggggg arse online tournament. Never played in anything higher than a $10 buyin so I never come close to playing in anything this big though.
The typical $26 Guaranteed MTTs on FT that have ~1500 player fields take around 7-8 hours to play out, and those are fast 150bb MTTs. When I won the $25,000 Guarantee last year, I think it was 1350 players or so, and it took me almost exactly 7 hours, from 6pm to 1am. I've played 4-5 hours going deep in a couple of MTTs since. So yeah, winning a large field MTT takes a lot of patience, endurance, and luck.

By comparison, just to cover the overlay in this $1.5M event would take a 7500 player field, and the max is 18,000. No idea how many an event like this actually draws, but I expect it'll be a decent field due to the number of satellite winners and top players that are always drawn to the big WCOOP events. I've heard of WCOOP events (maybe the Main Event?) taking ~20 hours. Also, it's a 500bb deep stack tourney with very slow (by online standards) 20 minute levels. At least it starts at 1pm ET, so should I be fortunate enough to go deep enough to matter, I won't be caring much about sleep by then, lol.
 
dmorris68

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Ok, just had a deep run in the $35K Guarantee, took 93rd out of 1656. I be practicing my MTT skillz. :)
 
dmorris68

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I see that DTB has a decent selection of MTT videos, including some on WCOOP events and other big, deepstacked tourneys. Guess I need to sacrifice some play time to study these.
 
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