Odd raise UTG

Clambake420

Clambake420

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This hand was early in a SNG. I had no real information on the player yet. Was just wondering what others would do in this situation. My thought was this was so early in the tourney that risking most of my stack on a hand like JJ against someone who i had no information on just didnt seem worth the risk, i could fold the hand and wait for a better spot. I also didn't want to flat call and risk seeing over cards and re-raising all in pre flop when i have no information seemed like a big risk. But anyways heres the HH (I was unaware that PS changed the Time clock rule which is why i timed out, haha)

PokerStars Game #48561926980: Tournament #304041920, $1.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2010/08/23 13:14:13 ET
Table '304041920 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: YYYVANYYY (1740 in chips)
Seat 2: heneryhow (1260 in chips)
Seat 3: moniek1 (1670 in chips)
Seat 4: Clambake420 (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: WitaminS (1470 in chips)
Seat 6: JuanPabloQQ (1440 in chips)
Seat 7: de_grek123 (2980 in chips)
Seat 8: Madafaka yo (1470 in chips)
YYYVANYYY: posts small blind 10
heneryhow: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Clambake420 [Jc Jh]
moniek1: raises 720 to 740
Clambake420 has timed out
Clambake420: folds
Clambake420 is sitting out
WitaminS: folds
Clambake420 has returned
JuanPabloQQ: folds
de_grek123: folds
Madafaka yo: folds
YYYVANYYY: folds
heneryhow: folds
Uncalled bet (720) returned to moniek1
moniek1 collected 50 from pot
moniek1: doesn't show hand
 
absoluthamm

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The fold was the way to go. No information or anything to go on, JJ is not the hand you want to get all-in when you're still at the first blind level. I have seen this before in both sit-n-goes and cash games where people will make a goofy raise like this with a big hand, hoping that someone else will just think that they either mis-clicked the drag bar when betting or were trying to steal, so people will call with anything down to like KJo. In the micro SnG's, you will see people who will go all-in with nada anyway, so this big bet can possibly be seen as a luring trap to get those people in.
 
Clambake420

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Yea i was thinking this and figured i was behind or at best a coin flip. was just so blown away i had to see what others thought. Thanks for the reply.
 
TheKAAHK

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I certainly see your reasoning for the fold here and I find myself folding for the same reasons as well.

But I have been wondering on this sort of problem for a bit now and I'd like to give a couple of arguements for a call/shove (mostly shove) in this spot.

1: JJ is only dominated by QQ-AA, and slightly ahead of AQ, AK. More likely you may be ahead than behind.

2: Being scared to shove with the 4th best hand in the game, so early in a SNG is IMO (and I do this as well, so..) weak. As you stated, it is still early, and you are presented with an oppritunity to stack an opponent and double up, or bust and fire up another game. Very little time invested and good cards to back up the shove.

3: I see more plays like this (from villian) with hands like 66-1010, (maybe even al low as 44) than with AA KK. This is because most players want to play mid pairs for a reise, but they are scared of seeing overs on the flop as well, and therefore raise huge in order to narrow the calling range against them, and still be able to rep a big pair like KK+. Even if everyone folds to the huge overbet, they still get the satisfaction of playing, and winning a pot with their small pair.

4: You have position. If you choose to flat, (which is usually a bad idea because you know the shove is coming on the flop regardless), you have more oppritunity to either get away if you are crushed (but if you flat, you're not folding given the stack/pot ratio) or see a nice dry little flop and gain confidance that you hold the best hand and happily call the shove.

Personally I think #4 is not a great line to take, but I threw it iin there just for the sake of discussion. Like I stated earlier I too have a problem with folding large PP's to a pre-flop overraise early in a SNG because "they might have aces". I realize now that more than likely, they don't. Would you raise half your stack pf with aces? I sure as hell wouldn't. But I could see myself raising that amount with a hand like 99, making it look like I'm so cinfident in my "monster" that I'm going to stack off anyways.

I dunno, what do others think about all this??
 
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absoluthamm

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The thing is, it isn't a terrible strategy early on with AA/KK given how terrible micro stakes SnG players are. If you have played a bunch of SnG's, which it seems to me like you have, then I'm sure you've seen people stack off with much worse at the micros early on to "hope" to get a nice stack to continue the game. Hell, the last micro SnG that I played in I see in HEM that in the first blind level 3 of the guys were all in with AQo, J9s and 55. If you get one of those idiots at your table and you make a big move like the one in the OP, you've just gotten them all-in with a sub-par hand while you have the best. If you are playing against competent opponents, then that line would be dumb as you would want to extract the most from them, and the extreme 37BB open isn't the way to do that.
 
Clambake420

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I certainly see your reasoning for the fold here and I find myself folding for the same reasons as well.

But I have been wondering on this sort of problem for a bit now and I'd like to give a couple of arguements for a call/shove (mostly shove) in this spot.

1: JJ is only dominated by QQ-AA, and slightly ahead of AQ, AK. More likely you may be ahead than behind.

2: Being scared to shove with the 4th best hand in the game, so early in a SNG is IMO (and I do this as well, so..) weak. As you stated, it is still early, and you are presented with an oppritunity to stack an opponent and double up, or bust and fire up another game. Very little time invested and good cards to back up the shove.

3: I see more plays like this (from villian) with hands like 66-1010, (maybe even al low as 44) than with AA KK. This is because most players want to play mid pairs for a reise, but they are scared of seeing overs on the flop as well, and therefore raise huge in order to narrow the calling range against them, and still be able to rep a big pair like KK+. Even if everyone folds to the huge overbet, they still get the satisfaction of playing, and winning a pot with their small pair.

4: You have position. If you choose to flat, (which is usually a bad idea because you know the shove is coming on the flop regardless), you have more oppritunity to either get away if you are crushed (but if you flat, you're not folding given the stack/pot ratio) or see a nice dry little flop and gain confidance that you hold the best hand and happily call the shove.

Personally I think #4 is not a great line to take, but I threw it iin there just for the sake of discussion. Like I stated earlier I too have a problem with folding large PP's to a pre-flop overraise early in a SNG because "they might have aces". I realize now that more than likely, they don't. Would you raise half your stack pf with aces? I sure as hell wouldn't. But I could see myself raising that amount with a hand like 99, making it look like I'm so cinfident in my "monster" that I'm going to stack off anyways.

I dunno, what do others think about all this??


Yea I see where your coming from in this argument also. Obviously i would not flat call, shove or fold was my only 2 options. I've seen a lot of people over bet there mid pairs a lot in these SNG's and i usually pick it up after Ive seen them do it several times and this would of made this situation an easy shove. But i also can see them doing what absoluthamm said. It doesn't make sense to me doing it with cards like QQ-AA but who knows what these maniacs are doing at these micro sngs. I like the 2 view points on this hand and i still find myself thinking about it. I wish i got to see his cards. and in hindsight i shoulda shoved cause i ended up going card dead for the next several levels and then getting rivered when i had to shove.
 
absoluthamm

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Just realized something. I am not disagreeing with either of you on the fact that a lot of people overbet with their low-mid pocket pairs, but they don't overbet like this with those hands. But where I differ is in their sizes, they will overbet like 5-8xBB opening with those small-middle PPs, not 35xBB...
 
TheKAAHK

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Just realized something. I am not disagreeing with either of you on the fact that a lot of people overbet with their low-mid pocket pairs, but they don't overbet like this with those hands. But where I differ is in their sizes, they will overbet like 5-8xBB opening with those small-middle PPs, not 35xBB...

This is true as well. So are you saying that a 35xbb raise is usually KK AA? This just seems to me to be waaay too big for such a big hand UTG. I could see it more from the CO with a few lmpers already in, but UTG?

In all honesty, this example (in OP) baffles me.
 
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Poker Orifice

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Two choices...
a) mark notes > 'plyr is an idiot, ridic 35bb+ rs EP'
b) shove... villain has AK and wants to gambool

What kind of a hand would warrant such a ridiculous sized raise? I figure it to be AK with villain being clueless (obv).

For a buck I'm also wanting to shove out of curiousity, .... wtf do they have here? lol
 
absoluthamm

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I'm not saying it usually is. But I am saying that I have seen it be that a fair number of times. It could very well be AK as well.
 
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Clambake420

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Two choices...
a) mark notes > 'plyr is an idiot, ridic 35bb+ rs EP'
b) shove... villain has AK and wants to gambool

What kind of a hand would warrant such a ridiculous sized raise? I figure it to be AK with villain being clueless (obv).

For a buck I'm also wanting to shove out of curiousity, .... wtf do they have here? lol


Hahaha yea this is also true, but when trying to build a bankroll i try and avoid this reasoning...hahaha
 
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