Not sure what else I can do?

I've been playing poker live for about 8 years now, and just made the move from a fairly successful part-time live game to pokerstars micro tournaments.

Before I made this move, I researched the differences between online play and live play and worked out a few strategies that I find work great in bigger fields live so might transfer quite well onto the internet forum.

Basically I play enough poker to know my strategy is mathematically and strategically sound, and my decision making process is serving me well. I did notice that -lots- more people will call or even re-raise cont bets and even when the range you could be put on is beating their hand 90% of the time, they'll still call or re-raise. The respect factor is non-existent, even after playing 1 hand in about 60, I still got called on my all-in re-raise from the small blind holding AA and got busted out.

This is just one example, but really I don't get angry at the few hands that don't go my way because it happens. Losing is poker, you have to take that on board and I completely do, but lately i've either been running bad or maybe I just don't get online poker.]

One example: I'm in the small blind, short stacked and pick up 10-10. 3 callers, I raise 4.5 BBs and get a caller in mid position. Flop comes 10-4-K rainbow, I cont bet and get re-raised very timidly so I push. Guy calls with Q-4. Turn comes Q, River comes Q. Bad beat but I can sort of see why he called. Onto the next hand!

Im on the button and get KK, 5 callers so I raise it 6 BBs to make it look like a steal and have someone re-raise me all in. No re-raise comes, but 1 caller under the gun. Flop comes 5-8-J rainbow, I bet, he raises, I go all in and get called. He shows 9-Q, you can guess the rest.

Now, these are just examples of bad beats right, everyone gets them, but i've been making the right decisions (like i have 8 BBs in my stack and im on the BB, guy raises to 6 BBs, I have an ace so I shove but lose the hand) from a mathematical and online perspective. I'm having issues trying to understand why people play like donks, which is fine, but when I'm losing almost every tournament to someone calling a 10BB raise with 2-6 off or something very similar, it gets a little frustrating.

Is there a trick to playing these microstake tournys? should I play tighter or gamble gamble? I try to adapt as much as possible, but it just seems like when i go all in with AK and get 3 callers, one with Q-6 off, one with 3-3 and another with A-7 off that the world is going mad. It wouldn't be so bad if this wasn't an EVERY TABLE occurrence, that people just seem to love the gamble aspect more than the poker aspect.

Should I play in bigger stake tournaments? These are costing about $2 each atm but I can head up to $20 if the difference in playstyle is worth the migration. Any thoughts?

NO one cares about loosing $2 in a tournament. You need to play high limits, if i ever played low stakes i would call with a lot for 2 reasons 1. i don't no what i am doing or 2. I no what i am doing and don't care about $2 so my goal is to suck out and have fun. Low level MTT online and cash games get an even higher abundance of donk calling b/c there is no embarrassment factor. When you play live even if it is small stakes ppl don't donk as much cause u r face to face.If u want to play online and avoid junk like this play higher levels.

Ignore first response.

There are terrible players in MTTs at all levels but really no worse than the amazing stuff you see in live MTTs.

If you are always getting it in good, you aren't getting it in often enough.

If you make moves where you are never bluffing, you aren't bluffing enough.

If you want to avoid going mad in micro tourneys, try avoiding Friday and Saturday nights, turbo, and rebuy tournaments. Though droolers are prevalent everywhere, I find there are more of them at these times in these formats.

Conversely, you can take more time to expand your knowledge base, be more flexible in your playing style, and let them give you their money. For every drooler that busts your stack, there will be 5 more that will double you up. Over the long term, you're making more than your losing by playing these players.

MildCorma said:

One example: I'm in the small blind, short stacked and pick up 10-10. 3 callers, I raise 4.5 BBs and get a caller in mid position. Flop comes 10-4-K rainbow, I cont bet and get re-raised very timidly so I push. Guy calls with Q-4. Turn comes Q, River comes Q. Bad beat but I can sort of see why he called.
Should I play in bigger stake tournaments? These are costing about $2 each atm but I can head up to $20 if the difference in playstyle is worth the migration. Any thoughts?

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You can sort of see why he called w Q4? Really? Say it isn't so. I can't see why they'd call a limper never mind a shorter stack's raise preflop.
$1 & $2 mtt's are pretty awful for sure but I wouldn't recommend jumping up to $20buyins. (although there are many bad players there too).
In the $8's & $11's (on Stars) once you get late into the 2nd hour there'll be a greater percentage of winning players. Also, alot of the LSMTT regs. (& some mid-stakes) will add in the $10 freezeouts to their schedule (& $3, $5 rebuys).. some even add in the $4 & $5 freezeouts (I know this as I see their stats. while sitting with them on tables) so the play generally changes once the tourney progresses. Would this make it better for you to play in them? I don't know... different perhaps but not sure if 'better' (in the donkfests you'll get paid off by complete morons).

I noticed that too PO. it certainly calls into question the decision making ability of this player. #1 leak - thinking you are a better player than you really are.

Poker Orifice said:

You can sort of see why he called w Q4? Really? Say it isn't so. I can't see why they'd call a limper never mind a shorter stack's raise preflop.

In the $8's & $11's (on Stars) once you get late into the 2nd hour there'll be a greater percentage of winning players. Also, alot of the LSMTT regs. (& some mid-stakes) will add in the $10 freezeouts to their schedule (& $3, $5 rebuys).. some even add in the $4 & $5 freezeouts (I know this as I see their stats. while sitting with them on tables) so the play generally changes once the tourney progresses. Would this make it better for you to play in them? I don't know... different perhaps but not sure if 'better' (in the donkfests you'll get paid off by complete morons).

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MildCorma said:

One example: I'm in the small blind, short stacked and pick up 10-10. 3 callers, I raise 4.5 BBs and get a caller in mid position. Flop comes 10-4-K rainbow, I cont bet and get re-raised very timidly so I push. Guy calls with Q-4. Turn comes Q, River comes Q. Bad beat but I can sort of see why he called. Onto the next hand!

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You're short-stacked, and three players have limped in before it gets to you in the SB. Why raise to 4.5BB? How short were you? With any kind of short or short-ish stack, possibly up to 15 or so BB, this seems like a shove to me.

And given that you haven't yet learned to handle the higher level of aggression you've encountered online, there's no way I'd support moving up. As you do, you'll run into increasing aggression, and since the proportion of poor players will decline, more of that aggressions will be effective aggression.

Arjonius said:

You're short-stacked, and three players have limped in before it gets to you in the SB. Why raise to 4.5BB? How short were you? With any kind of short or short-ish stack, possibly up to 15 or so BB, this seems like a shove to me.

And given that you haven't yet learned to handle the higher level of aggression you've encountered online, there's no way I'd support moving up. As you do, you'll run into increasing aggression, and since the proportion of poor players will decline, more of that aggressions will be effective aggression.

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This. Non-AI raising is horrible. That doesn't look like "strategically and mathematically sonud" to me.

I'd say your main problem is sample size though, even a good plauer probably needs several 1000 tournaments to even out variance.

Poker Orifice said:

You can sort of see why he called w Q4? Really? Say it isn't so. I can't see why they'd call a limper never mind a shorter stack's raise preflop.

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What I meant is I can see why he called after the flop, but I should've been clearer. Of course you should fold this hand, this is why I used him as an example of donking out. I was on about 18BBs and a shove against those players would've gotten me 3-4 callers as the need to gamble was very, very strong. I don't know what it is about some people but you raise and they fold, you shove and they'll go "meh why not!" and you'll get a few callers for value as well. Not that I was against that, but 10s I want to take heads up so that's what I played for.

MildCorma said:

What I meant is I can see why he called after the flop, but I should've been clearer. Of course you should fold this hand, this is why I used him as an example of donking out.
ok. no prob.
I was on about 18BBs and a shove against those players would've gotten me 3-4 callers as the need to gamble was very, very strong. I don't know what it is about some people but you raise and they fold, you shove and they'll go "meh why not!" and you'll get a few callers for value as well. Not that I was against that, but 10s I want to take heads up so that's what I played for.

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I can't say what I'd do for sure because I wasn't sitting at that table.
If I'm not shoving there, I'm prob raising to 6x & jamming any flop (if called pre) w ~ pot-sized bet left in stack. Sounds more like the type of 'choo-choo' table, where it'll set off a calling train. If so.. just jam pre.
Not sure which I prefer cuz I wasn't sitting there (not sure of stack sizes, etc.). If I think I get a caller I jam for sure obv.

MildCorma said:

What I meant is I can see why he called after the flop, but I should've been clearer. Of course you should fold this hand, this is why I used him as an example of donking out. I was on about 18BBs and a shove against those players would've gotten me 3-4 callers as the need to gamble was very, very strong. I don't know what it is about some people but you raise and they fold, you shove and they'll go "meh why not!" and you'll get a few callers for value as well. Not that I was against that, but 10s I want to take heads up so that's what I played for.

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Would you rather play against fundmentally solid players who don't just call with junk? I never understand the complaining about bad players., the very people who make poker profitable.

BlueNowhere said:

Would you rather play against fundmentally solid players who don't just call with junk? I never understand the complaining about bad players., the very people who make poker profitable.

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Aye, but the point i'm making is that actually i've been donked out of almost every tournament i'm entering. I'm making my money back, almost, but it just feels like either i'm just running bad and need to play through the variance or get into tournys with more invested which should reduce the donk factor a little, but not to the point where I can't make money of course

MildCorma said:

Aye, but the point i'm making is that actually i've been donked out of almost every tournament i'm entering. I'm making my money back, almost, but it just feels like either i'm just running bad and need to play through the variance or get into tournys with more invested which should reduce the donk factor a little, but not to the point where I can't make money of course

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If this is NOT happening to you 3 or 4 times a day your just not playing enough poker. We also forget the times that donks call our monsters with Q/4 and dont hit.
Keep getting it in good and maybe try some mtt sngs like the 180s

MildCorma said:

Aye, but the point i'm making is that actually i've been donked out of almost every tournament i'm entering. I'm making my money back, almost, but it just feels like either i'm just running bad and need to play through the variance or get into tournys with more invested which should reduce the donk factor a little, but not to the point where I can't make money of course

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How many have you played? Why do you want to get involved with tourneys with less donks? You do realise that your toruney equity decreases with a higher ratio of good players in the field? Sure you might not get donked out on as much, instead your stack will slowly be chipped away by better players.

Just played 5 deep field tournys on Stars with $2-5 buy-ins. I do pretty well in all getting into the money in 3 but going out immediately after. One table I was in a good position with about 36BBs and pick up pocket 10s. I raise on the button to 5BBs and the action folds around to the seats on the right of me who both call. Flop comes J-5-2 rainbow, I pot bet and get called by one and the other folds. Next card comes K, I pot bet again and get re-raised. I've seen this guy push on nothing before to try and steal and he caught the cards the 4 times i've seen him do this and get called, so i'm like ok, I'm all in. Pretty sure he has no king here and he's trying to scare me off, and sure enough he calls and shows A-8 off.... river comes A and he takes the pot, but it's beyond me how he can consistently call down pot bets with a single overcard, no draws and no pair that could improve. I go out to a donk after a good few hours of play and a perfect read, so i'm not that bothered, I just thought i'd share with you as writing it out helps me relax so thanks for reading if you did, it's a pretty uninteresting hand imo

Unrelated: Go Giants!

idk.. amazing reads ^ & some 'odd' bet-sizing imo.
I'm more likely raising to 2.5x (3x).. & should've been raising often (when given the chance) so I'm going to hopefully get played back at w TT otb.
With both blinds calling.. I'm also not going to cbet 'POT'... more likely ~1/2, 3/5 pot in this spot (but.. I'm not on the table so I don't know the history).
The 'K' is a decent card to fire on the turn... but again, I'm not going to bet 'POT' (would I be betting 'POT' if I'd flopped TPTK, or had KJ.. or set, etc.?). Also, in most cases they're going to fold whether you bet 1/2 pot or Pot (but again I'm not on your table so I can't say for sure.. I might even check it back on the turn here... I'm definitely not going to want to get it in if he check-raise me here... prob just check it back here against uber-aggro, hoping to get to showdown cheaply with a hand w showdown value.(if I have to fold river I'll still have a decent resteal-sized shove stack too)