This is not poker...

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lynxpoker

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This post is about/titled: "This is not poker" or alternatively, "Poker players don't need diapers."

So, I recently was at a final table of a MTT tournament in Vegas where I was largest chip stack. The blinds were ***SO RIDICULOUS*** at that point, that everyone else at the table was saying, "This is not poker anymore, it's just an all-in fest".

Everyone else wanted to just chop the cash payout, and I was the only one who was reluctant as I had the chip lead. But even I agreed that this was not poker anymore, plus I didn't want to be the only arse-hole who kept everyone in the game as we stagnated with: "Someone goes all in - everyone folds - rinse - repeat".

So, I was the final one to agree to chop the cash, and while we all walked away with few hundred dollars, we were all thoroughly annoyed with blinds being thumb-pressed to our necks, and we all were pretty much done with poker for the night and we all left the poker room (and the casino as far as I could tell).

Now, keep in mind that I love poker, and while winning money is certainly the goal, I really also enjoy playing real poker where skill is the emphasis rather than coin-flip fests.

Originally, I had planned to:

1. Enter (and hopefully win) the casino's modest buy-in MTT tournament.

2. Throw some money at the cash tables for 4-7 hours for the rest of the night and return over the next few days for more action.

But, I was so annoyed at the blindf$ck of the MTT that after that, I went and got dinner and just walked around Vegas the rest of the night, instead of playing at the cash tables.

Now of course, small to moderate MTT tournaments serve these purposes for the interests of casinos:

1. Get butts in the casino and poker room to make the whole casino seem more lively and constantly populated, thus encouraging casual passer-byes to play there or at nearby slots. It's a monkey-see-monkey-do revenue maker.

2. Get no-risk/guaranteed revenue from the buy-in/admin fees.

3. Get poker players in the door so they play cash games after they win or bust out from the tournament so the casinos can make money from consistent rake.

4. Encourage long-term relationships with poker players so they constantly return to their poker room and spend more of their money.

So, it would be in the best interests of casinos to run poker-player friendly tournaments to stimulate other areas of revenue, rather than forcing action and getting the MTT over with as soon as possible (i.e. nickel and dime-ing revenue), yet frustrating poker players in the process.

It is as if casinos are saying, "Hey, poker players: You need diapers (i.e. ridiculously fast levels and escalating big blinds) to encourage you to poop (i.e. force action).

But really, WE ARE POKER PLAYERS...WE KNOW HOW TO FORCE ACTION AND WE DO IT CONSTANTLY...

We don't need ridiculously escalating blinds to force action. In fact, ridiculously escalating blinds do the opposite.

I can' tell you how many times that I am deep in a tournament and the tables stagnate because the blinds are so high. Less players, rather than more players, are knocked out because the all-in fest happens, and hardly any flops are seen per hour. Players' chip stacks end up hovering around the same amount, because everyone is just merry-go-rounding everything with no real progress being made positively or negatively. This is especially true when the everyone at the table has moderate or average chip stacks.

Obviously, casinos want players knocked out as much as possible because that is a smarter revenue model, so they think, "Let's just ridiculously escalate the blinds and make shorter blind levels to get the MTT over as soon as possible." Ideologically, I don't disagree or have a problem with this. I understand and want casinos to make money because I understand it is a business, and they are offering a great service to US poker players.

But ironically, I find that more players are knocked out earlier in tournaments (when the blinds are low) rather than later (when the blinds are high).

For example, I've played in tournaments where starting chips are relatively high (let's say $10,000 or so) and blinds are 25/50 where 3-4 players get knocked out of the table within the first 15 minutes. Then, later on when the blinds are 4000-8000, no one gets knocked out for a whole hour.

This is because, in the early stages, more flops are seen and more action is happening which tempts players to put their chips at risk. One player might catch 2 pair on the flop, while another flops a set, while another flops a flush draw, and this is where you get your bust outs because everyone thinks their hand is good.

In contrast, later on when blinds are ridiculously high, you get one person all-in-ing, most people folding, then the action goes to one player who thinks for 5 minutes whether to call the all-in (then ultimately folding), and you end up seeing less hands per hour with little or no flops being seen.

Also, keep in mind, that I would probably be the last person to complain about this as I know how to use escalating blinds to my advantage to progress further in the tournament. But, I also agree with many others that poker becomes a joke and not fun when it becomes coin-flip/all-in fests.

Many times I've found myself deep in a tournament at a table where everyone is laughing or commenting about the all-in fest and people end up openly discussing their hands while they are still in them. People are "wink-wink-hint-hinting" that they have AA-KK-QQ-AK (whether true or not) as they go all-in and it becomes a complete joke. People are telling each other after their all-ins, "Hey man, you don't have to call it" or, "You don't want to call me man," and it's really not poker anymore. With monster hands pre-flop early in the tournament, people would love others to call. Later on, people are like, "Please, for the love of god, don't call me!" It's ridiculous.

I don't claim to have a solution for this but here are some suggestions:

1. Have blind levels stay the same for 2, 3, or even 4 levels as the norm while antes escalate as normal.

2. Have ante amounts stay the same for four levels or have antes come in way-way later as the norm.

3. Have blind and ante levels increase based upon the number of players left in the field. Like, let's say the number of players left hits 100, then blinds and antes go up.

4. Most importantly, have faith that we poker players know how to push action, and we don't need pressure from ridiculously escalating blinds to do so. In fact, blinds forcing the action will only tighten many of us up and lead to less action.

Blind amounts and level durations should *encourage* action not *dictate* it.

Poker players want to play real poker, not bingo. I guarantee if casinos constantly keep in mind what poker players want rather than nickel and dime-ing, then they will see higher player turnouts, which in turn, will generate more revenue for them in the long run.
 
Antonio22777

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I find the post very interesting and i have been in the same situation several times.Like you say,Theres no skill involved just pushing the good hands all in and folding the rest of the time.I wish officials could take the matter into consideration and change the rules a bit.I know its not going to happen but i can wish.LOL
 
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revskip

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The final table of most tournaments particularly live small buy in events are all about ICM and push/fold poker. I get the frustration you were feeling but in low M situations like the one you described you are going to have that dynamic unless one or more stacks is massive compared to the others. In situations where everyone is in danger of blinding out the norm is push/fold. I would recommend playing around with the ICMizer and getting comfortable with that part of the game, it will make you more confident to resist the chop next time.

http://www.icmpoker.com/icmizer/#default
 
micalupagoo

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The final table of most tournaments particularly live small buy in events are all about ICM and push/fold poker. I get the frustration you were feeling but in low M situations like the one you described you are going to have that dynamic unless one or more stacks is massive compared to the others. In situations where everyone is in danger of blinding out the norm is push/fold. I would recommend playing around with the ICMizer and getting comfortable with that part of the game, it will make you more confident to resist the chop next time.

http://www.icmpoker.com/icmizer/#default
this^^^
when blinds are real high or stacks are lowish push/fold is the smart way to play
usually near the end of mtts (depending on structure)
accept it as part of the game, actually embrace and learn this
(or limp/min bet 25% of your stack and fold?)
 
Everybodylovesdeuces

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I've played a few of those, most recently when Missjacki and I went to Vegas for a non-poker weekend with friends and decided to play the PH daily. They are for tourists. If you want to really play poker you have to find special events and often higher buy-ins. Ask for the blind structure ahead of time. I'm sure we all have an edge in those donkfests, but the reality is unless you play like 50 of them you'll never overcome the variance to reap the benefits. Most likely you'll frustrate the hell out of yourself and end up playing blackjack.
 
swerdnase

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I know exactly what you're saying as I've experienced it myself. At the same time, casinos don't make that much from poker, and even less with MTTs. The blinds are intentionally structured in a way to get you in and get you out. Notice that most tournament start times are during off-peak hours.

I don't know what limits you usually play or how often you venture out to Vegas, but if you want a blind structure that is more indicative of what you find online, Venetian's Deep Stack Extravaganza is a particularly well-run festival that offers a lot of room for maneuvering that starts at $200 per event.
 
Teebaggins

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I too have experienced the frustration at my local Indian casino. First time I went to play in their MTT I asked what the blinds were. They were ridiculous! They made the most random jumps and at odd/varying minute intervals. I don't think they even know how to properly run a good MTT. I suggested I help formulate a better structure but they said they were "working on it" (yeah okay, just like you are working on a poker room LOL).

Fun fact, I actually live in the same area as Tom McEvoy's (1983 wsop main event winner) brother. He is quite good at poker as well and we had a discussion at the FT about how insane the game was. Total luck and pointless to play in again until it becomes a better structure... Though I did chop top 4 for about $500..

Just so frustrating that casinos constantly host these insane blind structure tournaments in hopes to lure more money into the casino. If you don't know how to run a proper poker tournament, please don't run one at all! Even if it is the ONLY game in the area.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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well, take my reply with a grain of salt but: it is what it is.

It is unlikely that cheap tourneys are going to suddenly start offering a better structure. so, the way I see it you have 2 options: Either A) Don't play tourneys with crappy structures or B)work on your short stacked push/fold game.

I do sympathize, I understand how you feel. But the fact is that it's just a part of tournament poker. Even the WSOP main event gets to spots where many players are in push/fold mode. managing various stack sizes it what makes tourney poker an entirely different beast than cash. overall, the players who are best at managing all different stack sizes will get the results.

but....obviously the variance goes way up with these crappy structures...

When everybodylovesdeuces and I go to a good event and play a good structure we ALWAYS swear that we're not going to play crappy structures any more...but inevitably we find ourselves itching to play and so we find ourselves playing push/fold poker once more. Such is the life of a tourney grinder...
 
TomLeach

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I agree with this post, although agree it is part of the territory in some tournaments and learning ICM optimal strategy is needed...

The only thing i would say in argument to this, is that if 500 people enter, stats would argue youre going to get more people knocked out when there are 500 left than when there are 50 left.. no?
 
Arjonius

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Any tournament's structure should be available to you before you enter. So with some experience plus a bit of foresight, you should be able to have an idea of what the stacks will be like in the late stages when you decide whether to enter or not.
 
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I love the fast tourist casino daily tourneys in Vegas.
Low skilled players drinking and having fun are great to play against.
 
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lynxpoker

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Thanks for all of your insights. Sounds like some of you definitely hate the ridiculous blinds while others are more accepting of it. But, I think everyone at least agrees that it is a problem.

Some are saying that it just a low buy-in/daily tourney problem, but I have played in larger buy-in/special event tourneys where the blinds structures are not that much better. And, while I've never played in the WSOP main event (hopefully one day), I've taken a look at that blind structure, and it still isn't that great. If I was to spend $10,000 for a tourney, it better have the most reasonable, poker-friendly blind structure EVER created.

Almost everyone I've played with (strangers and friends) agrees that it is problem, and everyone here is acknowledging it too. So, it isn't a stretch to think that even poker pros don't like it. If everyone doesn't like it, why are casinos continuing to do it?

You may say that it is because MTTs are not big revenue makers. I disagree. Like I stated in the OP, MTTs stimulate a casino's revenue in many, many other ways, not just the tourney itself. Especially with the consistently growing popularity of poker, they are making constantly increasing zero risk money while keeping their casinos populated. The cardinal sin of a casino is to be empty. MTTs get butts in the door for long periods of time. It is a symbiotic relationship that casinos have with poker players. We both win if done right.

If casinos don't recognize this, then poker player turnout might go south. I've seen it in some of the lower buy-in blindf$ck tournaments where player turnout is not where it used to be. Even in the recent $10 million dollar guarantee SHRPO event, the casino had to put up a $2.5 million dollar overlay because not enough players turned out.

I once read something not related to poker from a really smart guy (the name escapes me right now) that was something to the effect of "you should never take the audience/public for granted because they can easily start flocking somewhere else if you don't pay attention to what they want." Casinos should understand this. Even though poker MTT turnout has grown incredibly over the past decade, it could easily go south if poker players become alienated or disillusioned.

All poker players want is the same game of skill that they have always been playing. Anything the casinos can do to ensure that would be welcomed and returned in full. When the game turns into something else, it is really off-putting. Because, I think that most poker players choose poker over any other game because poker is primarily a game of skill, not luck. We like having a say in the outcome rather than leaving things purely to chance.

And that is my main problem with the ridiculously increasing blindf$cks. It turns poker into just another game of chance, and I wouldn't play poker if it was just another game of chance, and it makes me not want to play ANYTHING at the casino. And, I constantly see others complaining about the same thing. If there is significant overhaul to blind structures that are more reasonable and natural to the pace of the game, I think casinos will start to see player turnouts increase.
 
JPoling

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I find this an interesting read because I have been to some places where the structure is just stupid. One I recall. Starting stacks 2K, blinds starting at 25/50 going up every 20mins. Basically, right off the get go youre looking for a double-triple up just to save you from blinds eating you up in a level or two, and even then it starts to turn into push/fold for everyone except for few who have busted enough people to build big enough stack.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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To the OP: Look, I enjoy a nice slow structure as much as the next guy or gal. But to play long, slow tourney I have to set aside an entire day or two for it. That can be as much of a turn off to certain players as a shove fest would be to others.

Why don't you propose a better structure? Then, based on that structure we can figure out how long that tournament should take to end. Based on how many hours it will take we will find out the minimum rake necessary to pay the dealers and staff. Then we will set the buy in for that tournament as low as we possibly can while still not making the rake seem excessively high. and...you'll probably find once you've done all that math that you need a buy in of something like $500 or more to generate the rake necessary to run a 10-12 hour tournament.

You're saying "players want a better blind structure" but that's not all players want. Players want affordable buy ins, big guarantees, competent dealers, well run tourneys, and weekend events. So all those forces are competing for their place in what turns out to be the final blind structure.

There is this club here in Oregon I frequent. It is really a well run club. I am friendly with the owners and tournament directors. We always whine about wanting a better structure to which they reply "yeah, but we need these events to end in 1 day. Using this current structure the event already ends between 3:00 and 5:00 am. How can we possibly stretch it any longer?"

and...I don't really have a good response to that. It's the truth. In fact, if I thought any of these were 2 day events, I probably wouldn't play half of the events that I currently do because I only have so much time to devote to poker.

As with many things in life it is a trade off.

part of tourney poker is that at some point stacks get shallow relative to blinds....then a bubble bursts, there is a rash of bust outs and the average stack gets a little deeper again...then blinds escalate to force the action again.....you're free to think whatever you want-but rising blinds DOES force the action. it just does.
 
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lynxpoker

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To missjacki: You make great points.

However, you may misunderstand my thinking. I don't want long, slow tournaments either. I want reasonable and natural blind progressions that ENCOURAGES the action, not FORCES (as you pointed out) it. I do want blinds to increase. But, I just want them to make more sense. Casinos are pushing the limits of what players will accept blind wise to the point that player turnout is suffering. They often set the blinds too ridiculously fast to the point that players are finding it stupid and aren't coming back.

And, I completely understand all of the administrative and time factors that go into determining buy-ins, fees, structures, and participation. However, someone in this thread mentioned something like, "If you are going to put on a tournament, either do it right, or don't do it at all." So, with this in mind, casinos can't just think about the bottom line when putting on the tournament. What really matters is player satisfaction and player loyalty to the casino. The casino should not worry how much money the MTT is making at face value. The real money is made when PLAYER A eats at the casino's restaurants, stays in the hotel rooms, watches the casino's shows, gambles money at the casino's tables/slots before and after the tournament, has friends and family doing the same, recommends the casino to others, and then comes back and does it again and again. If PLAYER A feels nickel and dimed or otherwise disillusioned, he won't spend anymore time or money at the casino, won't come back, and won't recommend the casino to anyone else.

And, casinos should really be thinking of their reputation among poker players as their priority. If they run the best MTTs and poker rooms, they are going to get high amounts of new and returning traffic forever. Who cares how much the MTT makes if you are raking in the dough as a residual effect?

As for your tournament length concern, I have also played tourneys into the early A.M. hours and agree that it sometimes becomes a drag. I agree that slowing blind structures could delay the ending time, but I honestly don't think it would be by much or at all. As I stated before, higher blinds at/towards the final table actually tightens player action up, especially if everyone is average stacked. Less flops are seen. It is after the flop where I find most knockouts occurring. I'm much more likely to call someone's all-in at a final table when I have 3 of a kind, and he/she has a straight, rather than calling someone's all-in pre-flop. More sensible blinds encourage more people to stay in the hand pre-flop, and that is what gets real potential knockout action going.

My point is that there is the natural inclination to think that ridiculously increasing blinds gets the tournament over sooner, but, in fact, it may have the opposite intended effect. And in some cases, casinos might be pissing off players in the process. It is like the analogy that sometimes the quickest way from point a to point b is not always a straight line. Or like when people are growing up and are told to do something, but we do the opposite instead. You can't control people's behavior by forcing them to do what you want. Like I said, I've seen blindf$cks significantly tighten players up, make them hang on for as long as possible, and drag out tournaments. This is why I say that casinos should have faith that poker players know how to push action, and we do it constantly (regardless of what the blinds are).

As I said before, I don't claim to have a solution for the best blind structure. I DO want casinos to make money, especially if they are ones that value poker players and recognize the win-win relationship that we have. I just want them to seriously tone down the blindf$ck trend, re-evaluate the "faster is better" thinking, and think about the bigger picture when coming up with the structures of the tournaments that they run.
 
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