Not making any draws but rivering the high card

Hey, well I busted out on my very first hand of this tourney tonight.. lol. I thought it was an "okay" call but got that nagging feeling it was dumb.

(Sorry I don't know poker hand jargon like 'hero' and all the cool graph stuff, so I'll explain literally..)

Tourney starts, 1500 chips.

I had 8c Kc on the button. To my right, calls. I call. SB folds. BB checks.

Flop comes: 2h 6c 7c.

Right checks. I bet 100. BB raises 200. Right folds. I call.

Turn comes, I think 9h. BB bets 300. I call.

River, K (forgot suit but not a club) and he goes all in.

At this point, I missed straight/flush, but have the K high. My gut said he had something like 2 pair or 3 of a K, since he was raising from the flop.

But on the chance he only had 7 high, or also was on a flush/straight draw, was I "okay" in calling with the K high?

Thanks. (I think I would've either raised more preflop to get BB off his hand.. or else folding after the turn. Or just sat out and waited for something better. )

Fold pre

Assuming blinds were 10/20, I don't think you were getting correct pot odds to call on either the flop or turn.

pf pot 70
flop, pot is 370, 100 to call
turn, pot is 470, 300 to call

I can't remember the last time I voluntarily put money into the pot with a K8. Really.

Why would you play it? Don't even talk about the flop. tell us why it was a good thing to call with K8. Position? A read? Suited? Why? There has to be a reason to VPIP a K8.

Want to win? Have patience, embrace the boredom,and wait. The fold button will get you farther than you think. They'll come. .


:icon_salu

Raise pre, don't limp.

He'll probably call, good flop to cbet/get it in. Embrace the variance.

Raise/fold pre (either is fine).

As played jam/fold flop when raised.

As played fold turn.

As played fold river.

To elaborate, you raise preflop to gain the initiative in the hand given that all you've been confronted with so far is a late position limp (indicative of a weak/marginal hand), or you just fold because K8s is pretty crap.

You don't call the flop raise because you're only going to see one more card before invariably facing another bet. Even if you were to guarantee seeing both remaining cards it's on the bad side of a marginal call. Shoving the flop might force a fold from our opponent or worst case scenario we will have outs and are guaranteed two chances to hit our draw if called. You fold turn because it's simply too expensive to try and hit the draw and shoving is less likely to fold the other guy out than shoving on the flop because (a) the fact that he's still betting means he's less likely to be running a bluff and (b) he has so much invested he's generally less likely to fold whatever he has. We fold river because we have top pair crappy kicker and beat nothing but a bluff.

So congrats, you pretty much botched every single street.

JusSumguy said:

I can't remember the last time I voluntarily put money into the pot with a K8. Really.

Why would you play it? Don't even talk about the flop. tell us why it was a good thing to call with K8. Position? A read? Suited? Why? There has to be a reason to VPIP a K8.

Want to win? Have patience, embrace the boredom,and wait. The fold button will get you farther than you think. They'll come. .


:icon_salu

Click to expand...

Here's my reason: Because I thought I was playing blackjack, and wanted to stand on my 18 ;P No, I just like suited. I was goin for the flush. K high flush... when I see I'm one away on the flop, I love that. Say what ya will, to me that's like meeting a girl who smiles at me. Doesn't mean I'm getting anything, but when I do, I DO!!

I know it was all bad moves but I guess.. my question was not about the bad decisions to go in with it or stick around on the flop and so on, it's when you do make bad decisions to go in and end up having a top pair at the river.

but I answered my own question. Really I just wanted to see if it was at least reasonable.. but I guess from the responses it wasn't.

So now when I go back, I'll know not to act like I knew what I was doing... haha. thanks

Raise preflop. Get it in on flop.

Aldito said:

Fold pre

Click to expand...

I hate these pointless posts. Why even bother posting in the first place? He didn't fold, hence the reason for the post to start with as PLAYED, what's the best option.

OP: I call the river as played. He most likely thinks you missed all your draws + theres a good chance he was raising his draws on the flop too.

Those post aren't pointless. The root of OPs issue comes from his play preflop. The rest of the hand only played out the way it did because of his preflop play. Fix that and OP is much better off.

WVHillbilly said:

Those post aren't pointless. The root of OPs issue comes from his play preflop. The rest of the hand only played out the way it did because of his preflop play. Fix that and OP is much better off.

Click to expand...

I know but my question asks what to do AFTER making an "improper go at it" when you shouldn't have, but then come to find out.. well I'll be damn, I got the highest pair (luck) at the end.

That high pair could also be bad luck, as it makes it more enticing to stay in.. assuming you think he had only a smaller top pair, or he was just being aggressive with draws.

(But in hindsight, I knew this guy was unlikely to be aggressive with draws, because this was the first hands of the tourney, and I didn't put him as one to raise without actual strong hands... so, yes, I should NOT have gone it (edit, i shouldn't have called on flop), but, honestly, I like going in with Kc 8c. Sue me )

Seventy3 said:

but, honestly, I like going in with Kc 8c. Sue me

Click to expand...

When you get sued and loose, what happens. YOU LOOSE MONEY. In essence you're suing yerself.

Being enamored to suited cards is one of the first leaks all of us had to plug. You're not alone, and you gotta give it up.


-

JusSumguy said:

I can't remember the last time I voluntarily put money into the pot with a K8. Really.

Click to expand...

I had a funny vision. I'm playing against you heads up, you raise I call, and flop comes K 8 8.

I would so lol.

ramdeebam said:

I hate these pointless posts. Why even bother posting in the first place? He didn't fold, hence the reason for the post to start with as PLAYED, what's the best option.

Click to expand...

Seventy3 said:

I know but my question asks what to do AFTER making an "improper go at it"

Click to expand...

But calling pre is a huge problem, so there's no point in analysing the rest of the hand.

If he had had 72o would you still berate me for saying fold pre, or is it because K8 "worth seeing a flop with"? If he had had AA and limped would you say "raise pre", or "as played..."?

Evaluating part of a hand is irrelevant, when a mistake on a previous street is what led us to that situation.

Seventy3 said:

I had a funny vision. I'm playing against you heads up, you raise I call, and flop comes K 8 8.

I would so lol.

Click to expand...

Funny.

Another leak though. Results aren't the issue.

Last night I flopped a set and was able to get all my money in... the river (two cards later) brings him a flush.

I lost. Did I play it right?


:icon_salu

I get all your concerns. But the reason I give is that, this is my 3rd tourny. I want to learn on my own whether folding kc 8c pre is the thing to do.

I'm not gonna read it here and say, okay I'll fold. Because then it's not my game. It's your game. and I'm not you. Believe me, I trust you guys. If I read those books (which I never do) I'm sure it's all in the statistics.. but, I'll find that out...


For now, I was just asking what to do after, since, I will be having many more "afters" during my 'learning process', which with 3 tourneys is definately is..

I know you guys find it hard to give advice for after since it's like telling a kid how to cure a cocain overdose. You want to tell them "but you shouldn't have done cocain"

Well, your not helping the next time because he WILL be dumb and do some coke again. but he won't know how to stop himself from OD'ing.

sorry for that bleak analogy.. I haven't slept... sprung out on a coffee ;')

Fair enough, it's your money you're pouring down the drain, not ours.

Nits ITT. Raising >> folding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calling.

This is why I love poker. Now you guys have motivated me, to win with k 8.

(I reached my 7 post limit.. so I'm responding to this here)
I think he should have raise preflop.against the 1 limper. He'll generally either take it down prelfop of win it on the flop with a cbet.

Your right, if I raised, BB would've probably gotten off his 2 5. But, if he called, and I cbet, he had 2 pair, still beat me (results oriented).. but, I get what youre saying, long run, that would likely win.

I know this cause usually I'm more aggressive, but I limped cause... well, mood. Figured, hope to get lucky, and plus.. again.. I'm still learning. Same situations before, I did raise.. but, I limped this time cause of the beginner mistake of wanting to minimize the cost to see a flop, and the flop came out good for me, well the flush draw. I was banking on that... Not really playing with the long term strategy.

WVHillbilly said:

Nits ITT. Raising >> folding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calling.

Click to expand...

3 limpers, and OP bets out 100 on the flop. I'm assuming 100 was less than pot, meaning the sum of 3bb and 1sb was 100, from which one can conclude they were at least 15/30. You really think raising K8s is good with a 30-50bb stack?

Sure, in a 100bb+ cash game I'm potting this all day long.

Aldito said:

3 limpers, and OP bets out 100 on the flop. I'm assuming 100 was less than pot, meaning the sum of 3bb and 1sb was 100, from which one can conclude they were at least 15/30. You really think raising K8s is good with a 30-50bb stack?

Sure, in a 100bb+ cash game I'm potting this all day long.

Click to expand...

I think he should have raise preflop.against the 1 limper. He'll generally either take it down prelfop of win it on the flop with a cbet.

WVHillbilly said:

Nits ITT. Raising >> folding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calling.

Click to expand...

This. Bunch of nits. Raise pre imo. Calling is horrible, folding is meh, raising is +ev. As played shove flop, As played I shove turn as well, we have some FE as well as decent equity against his calling range and I think it's most profitable move. As played fold river

I think a decent portion of the raise/fold preflop decision hinges on table dynamics and seeing as it's the first hand and as such there are no table dynamics, either is fine.

What better way to determine those dynamics that raising it up?

Barring not knowing how to play post flop poker I can't see how folding this is good. Fold is 0ev, raising is clearly +ev so I don't think it's that close.