NLHE 1000 person tournament: bubble boy

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Taxxman

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I just got knocked out of 1000 person tournament 5 people off the money. I was fairly decent stack, 35k with average stacks at 22k, so a little room to play some hands. Blinds were on 400/800 with 85 antes and I was second under the gun. I get dealt A10 off-suite and raise 3bb (3200), was called by button, sb and bb (13,700 in the pot), all slightly bigger stacks than me par bb who had a 90k stack. Flop came Ah, 3h, 4d, sb and bb checked quickly, and I suspected the button was weak as he had come in on a few weak hands before. I raise half the pot (7200k) which made button fold, sb fold and then bigstack on the bb raises me all in. I am thinking this is bluff to steal the pot, so I call, he turns over A 3, two pair, turn and river came up blank, and that was the end of my run.

The question is, how could I have better evaluated the situation. Should I have played this differently? Not played this at all and wait for people to get out so I can get to the money? (my problem with this is that you do not get good money until you get to the last table, so might as well go out aiming to win big or not at all, is this thinking wrong too?) Any help much appreciated!
 
Poker Orifice

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What can you beat?
 
Shufflin

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I'm folding preflop. Not because it is the bubble, just don't like that hand OOP.
 
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Tonawanda

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Unfortunate

I think you had to play the hand, and should expect/hope to be ahead after the flop. With 10,000+ invested, it would be difficult to fold. I have made that call 100 times and lost as many times. Conservative fold or fatal call? I can tell you I would have also made the call, and also lost. You could have tempered the raise after the flop, allowing you to get out with a more chips if you were re-raised and decided to be more conservative. When in doubt, I think you play to build the stack.
 
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Taxxman

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@ poker orifice: I was assuming with 3bb at this stage, he would be calling with pocket pairs or defending a A with low kicker. I beat most pockets, unless he had hit trips, but with 2 previous callers pre-flop, I ruled out pocket 2s to pocket 9s being called pre-flop. Wrong assumption?

@Shufflin: At this late a stage in the tournament, I didn't think I could afford to wait for a better hand to come out, it was the first play-able hand I had been dealt in over 25 mins, again, wrong thinking? More patience, or do I then run the risk of been eaten by the blinds?

@Tonawanda: makes me feel a bit better knowing you would have made same play!
 
Karkus77

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i would fold pre deffinately, nothing to do with the bubble, just that its not that great a hand with so many to act behind you

and if i was to raise, i would be doing 2.5x
 
Poker Orifice

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@ poker orifice: I was assuming with 3bb at this stage, he would be calling with pocket pairs or defending a A with low kicker. I beat most pockets, unless he had hit trips, but with 2 previous callers pre-flop, I ruled out pocket 2s to pocket 9s being called pre-flop. Wrong assumption?
Defending with Ax would be terrible (I'd only consider this if I thought he was terrible)
raise smaller pre (2.2 - 2.5x) 1850 (or fold)
 
Kenzie 96

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Personally, I'm trying to win, not just make the money, but am folding pre flop here A10 OOP, = -EV. You want to make an argument for playing this based on your reads on others at the table, fine, but your hands in the previous 25 minutes, irrevelant.
 
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fold pre unless table has really tightened up.

bubble doesn't really have anything to do with this hand otherwise.
 
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RamdeeBen

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What makes you think he's bluffing?

A check/raise all-in here would smell so badly of two at the very least.

I don't like opening here with A,10os at all, even A,10suited here is very marginal. Should be just folding these all the time.
 
dj11

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You got to know the poker gods are setting traps for bad play by decent players, and the ever so tempting ATo in EP is exactly the types of hands they dish out.

Easy fold pre till after the bubble bursts with this marginal hand and a decent stack.
 
MediaBLITZ

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#1 - I am not playing AT in early position (any more!) - classic trouble hand. Playing it there is a leak. You are going to end up 2nd best more times than not. Has nothing to do with the bubble.

#2 - A check raise on the flop is rarely a bluff. He passed on an opportunity to try a low risk bluff in order to execute a high risk bluff on the raiser who obviously has an A??? Also when facing 3 others after the flop you have to always consider someone could very probably be slowplaying something. A check could very well be in order.

#3 - Interesting you go from, "I was fairly decent stack, 35k with average stacks at 22k, so a little room to play some hands." to, "At this late a stage in the tournament, I didn't think I could afford to wait for a better hand to come out" when challenged about your decision to play AT. Notice the overwhelming consensus to fold this PF? A little room to play some hands also means a little room to pass on trouble hands and wait. Face it - you imploded via our old nemesis Impatience - "it was the first play-able hand I had been dealt in over 25 mins." Hey, we've all done it and are prone to doing it again, so don't feel beat up by it - just accept the reality so you're better next time.

#4 - Did you think this through before you acted?? At this stage in the tourney you are always subject to getting shoved on. Did you have a plan for that BEFORE you got in the hand or was it reactionary? If I am going to take a stab with AT (I might like 5% of the time semi-bluff with it) I have already decided that ANY over bet and I am out of there - or maybe - if the button shoves I am calling and folding to everyone else. That kind of stuff. Know what you are going to do before it happens - well actually before that street gets there. Say like in this case I am for sure thinking PF that if I hit the A and not the T then I have to be very, very careful. There are 12 cards with an A out there that crush me. That is a bunch. Any Dan Harrington disciple will have very likely flat called me PF with AQ. I cannot get get carried away. This is for the money.
 
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@WiZZim: Yes, it was a full table
@ramdeebam: My reasoning for thinking it could of been a bluff was he could just be playing big stack bully taking advantage of the fact that it was so close to the money and he had me covered several times over thinking that even with a strong hand he could make me fold becuase I would not want to risk missing out on hitting the money (I have seen big stacks do this sort of play in tournaments before, although normally for smaller stakes).
@dj11: the way that you said "till after the bubble bursts" are you implying that this play would have been acceptable in the same position after the bubble, becuase the rest of the feedback is indicating that I should not have played this hand at all?
@MediaBLITZ: First, thank you for the great feedback. Second, I wrote this after having played for a few hours to not make any money, so I think I was looking for excuses (as you have rightly pointed out), and as you have also said (and everyone else has said) it was a bad decision to have played the hand full stop. I also like the 4th point you have made, looking back, I did not plan properly, and reacted rashly to the check raise. Now that you have put it like that, I don't think I even considered an better Ace than mine (a very silly play on my behalf), so in future will be "pre-planning" my hands more carefully.
Great feedback guys, really glad I found this forum. Thanks
 
dj11

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@dj11: the way that you said "till after the bubble bursts" are you implying that this play would have been acceptable in the same position after the bubble, becuase the rest of the feedback is indicating that I should not have played this hand at all?

Prebubble is a treacherous place. You know you have the nits who will wait it out, and you have probably read that there are many who use the prebubble as a place to pilfer. And it can be a place where the agro player can make a bundle, people want some payoff for the time they have spent. They will fold better hands than your ATo in most situations just to get ITM.

Seeing as you would play ATo from EP, I suggested that altho many of us will muck that hand/position, many of us will play that hand/postiion. SO it is determined, because you did play that there, that you might always (or nearly always) play that hand in that position.

What I suggested is that you do NOT play that hand in that position at that point in the tourney. But after the bursting bubble, go back to your normal game.

As far as after the bubble goes, the play for the first few orbits after the bubble breaks, is usually about like the very first few orbits in most MTT's. The difference is that these hardy souls have invested a fair amount of time, and been rewarded, and now find that they may be short-stacked and since they got bucks in their pockets will open up hugely. Net effect is similar to the beginning of the game when a large proportion of the players seem to be on a 'Get a big stack fast or go home' binge.
 
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doomasiggy

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I just got knocked out of 1000 person tournament 5 people off the money. I was fairly decent stack, 35k with average stacks at 22k, so a little room to play some hands. Blinds were on 400/800 with 85 antes and I was second under the gun. I get dealt A10 off-suite

Fold pre. Iffy hand oop.

and raise 3bb (3200),

Raise less. Minraise/2.5x is fine at these blind levels and with these stacks.

was called by button, sb and bb (13,700 in the pot), all slightly bigger stacks than me par bb who had a 90k stack. Flop came Ah, 3h, 4d, sb and bb checked quickly, and I suspected the button was weak as he had come in on a few weak hands before. I raise half the pot (7200k) which made button fold, sb fold and then bigstack on the bb raises me all in. I am thinking this is bluff

Check/raise is rarely a bluff, especially this close to the bubble and with his stack size. Best case for you, he's doing this with a strong flush draw, but he could be doing this with AJ/AQ also, as well as two pairs and a set of 3's.

to steal the pot, so I call, he turns over A 3, two pair, turn and river came up blank, and that was the end of my run.

don't post results when you want analysis of your play
 
Arjonius

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It looks like you weren't thinking ahead enough. First, if anyone calls, you'll probably be OOP with a hand that is decent but not great if you pair on the flop, and not likely to flop many draws.

Second, did you look at the implications of your original bet size? Basically, the more you lead for, the more you have to put in to c-bet or check-call on subsequent streets. And if you get multi-way, as happened, it means even more chips. In the actual case, your half-pot bet was almost 20% of your remaining stack into three opponents with TP and a 10 kicker. Not the worst situation in the world, but a long way from the other end too.

And then, it seems rather optimistic to call off all your chips. So what if he has a big stack? He's risking 25k more to win 20k in the pot. Not awful odds, but as noted, what can you beat? He knows that a large part of your range is made up of big aces, so how likely is it that he's trying to blow you off AK or AQ with either a smaller A or an underpair? It's possible, but is it likely enough to stake your tournament life on it when you can fold and still have an avg stack? IMO no.

It's also possible he thinks you'd c-bet a hand like KK QQ or JJ, but that also seems optimistic.

I prefer the fold pre-, and second choice, as suggested is making it a smaller amount like 1800-2000. As played, I think it's not too difficult to fold to the check-raise.
 
duggs

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dont understand all the nittness, if its the bubble thats an easy open. I have yet to be on a table that didnt tighten up significantly on the bubble. plus from Ep you never get played back at light and people fold better hands to you.
 
The PoolBoy

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ace ten is so marginal...I'm no nit but gotta go with sm. raise and fold if 3 bet or over the top...WTF can ace ten beat on that flop anyway??
 
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