New player with several questions

Hello everybody.

I'v just joined your forum (which looks very good) and have a few questions which i'd appricate some answers too or just a general insight into the micro/low limit games.

First of i'd just like to say that i'v just started playin poker "properly" for around 3/4weeks. I have played poker over the years on just rather a more beginners level, ie: Know what to call with and what hands represent what but this time around iv really wanted to get into it and study the game a lot more. I’v been reading two books on poker and also been dropping by in forums to get the jist of what to expect and read some questions and threads regarding different aspects of the game.

I’d say i have learnt quite a lot over the weeks and done somewhat ok in the tournaments. My ROI is currently -50% (This is based on the fact i didnt know bankroll managment and just deposited with poker stars 3 times in 2 days for $10 a time just buying in $4.40 tournaments and didnt do to well, thats when i decided to study it more and since deposited another 10$ 3weeks ago and got upto $30 playing 0.25/$.50/$1.00 buy-in’s tournaments. According to “officalpokerrankings” i have an OPR of around 67% and ITM 23% of the time. I’d like your views if you can check out my stats and see how i am performing in relatity to other players..

The main questions i have is the plastyle of people.. I have lost on a river card in 5tournaments in a row from a caller preflop with like either a Jx or Ax caller when iv had a top pair and its very frutrating. Again today as iv been playing, i raised preflop 300..got 6 callers, graduly after the flop they folded as i bet another 400 as there was no higher card than mine. However someone called, so thought maybe they was slowplaying. Again, the turn came and another low card, i raised 1k, he put me all in. After a minute, i decided to call and see he had King,8...so nothing..then the river came he caught a King. Arrrrg, it riled me up somewhat rotten and i belive i’m playing my game ok but theres nothing i can do about how people cal so just want to know what level i think i can play at, as i can (wel feel) i can read what people seem to be doing, ie: caling with nothing.

People say you must be able to beat the low limits which i can to a degree its just because of the callers it really does feel like a lottery game at times.. I’m guessing because its such a small amount buy-in people dont care what they call with. For me, its not about the money, its about trying to gain more experiance and see how deep i can go in the tournament, but seems impossible to actually get a feel of how good you are when this sort of thing happens. When you watch higher level stake players playing, this just wouldent happen and a raise preflop wouldent get this many callers or even as xample above, surly they wouldent call hoping to catch a winning card on the river.

I’m tempted to raise my game by depositing a bigger amount of money in my account and to hopefully minimize the amount of callers with nothing/anything and how actually take pride in playing poker..Any advice would be great on this matter, what sort of limits am i going to have to move up if i do to minmize this problem?

Many thanks.

It all depends on what your bankroll is, proper bankroll management is one of, if not the most important things you must be doing now.

As for the ppl that chase all the way to the river and then hit, these are the ppl that you will be making a lot of money from, the only thing I can tell you about them is to not make it cheap for them to chase.

The stakes you play are all up to you, I personally play $25nl, the main reason I do that is because of the bad play at the lower stakes, and 6Max because I don't use any tracking software, and I find it easier to remember what ppl at the table play like.


***EDIT*** I just noticed that this is in the tounament section, I read your post as to be talking about cash games.

There are some great strategies and tips on how to beat micro-stakes tournaments in the strategy section of this site. The general rule of thumb is to play the opposite of the table. If you see a lot of callers, then play tight. For example, no reason to raise with Q T if you are going to get called by six other players. If no one is calling, then play loose. Raise 3 BB with K T and see if you can steal the pot. bluff by 3-betting, etc.

Good luck in the tournaments! -David

For SNG's you should be playing with 50-100 buyins, depending on how conservative you are. Although it is frustrating, start with the $1 tournaments. Play tight and be aggressive with your big hands, and learn to continuation bet more when you whiff the flop.

OK. First off, if you can afford 100+ deposit, go for it and get off the 1$ SnGs, as rake is much higher, I think the difference between 1$ and 2$ is 20% vs 12% (on FT and PKR). Zorba may be a cash player but his point is spot on about making ppl pay for chasing. It sounds like your mindset is good, i.e. wanting to learn, reading books, looking for strategy and advice. I can afford a bigger buy in, but will not do it yet since I m also trying to gain experience, and I think that games between 2-10 dollars (SnG) are gonna have a selection of idiots and players paying attention. It seems to me (and I have read a few threads on this topic, and many agree) that the lower limits are getting more and more players who have a basic grasp on the game, so just cause its a low buy in does not mean a table of fish. (Although often enough lol) After an orbit or 3 you will see how the table is. I have run accross some damn tight tables at low stakes, 2-3 orbits with everyone folding and the hands played to showdown all legit hands, so you just have to watch and see. I have heard that the higher stakes just have a higher % of better players, but the ground rules are the same, i.e if you see someone seeing the first 7 out of 10 flops, well, if it smells like a fish, flops like a fish, gurgles like a fish........
But you mentioned a short amount of time playing serious, so I would suggest staying at the low stakes till you are beating them, just go up a bit, if you have the money, play 2$ minimum, more if you can afford it, but dont get into the 10$ SnG till you are crushing the 3-5 $ ones (depending on the site, I dont know how the buy-ins are on PS)

Good Luck

Thankyou for your fast replies.

I'v tried the continuation bet like when i had the pocket jacks and raised preflop. I continued to do a continuation bet all the way to the turn, as their was no cards on the table that was higher than my pocket pair and no chance of a straight or flush draw. However, on the turn i bet the 1k, got a caller and river card was a king which he was playing all along, K,x card and he got lucky on the river. I just wondered what sort of stakes\buy-in's someone would treasure their investment and game play to relise this is a ridiculous playing action..

Hello and thankyou again for replys.
Hey fletchdad.

I do try make them chase, but they do tend to call even if it’s a high bet thats the thing, then get a lucky river. I’m sure most would even maybe call an all-in, it just doesnt seem to work in tournaments for me.

I play on pokerstars currently and how would you determine “crushing” the games? I dont play cash, only MTT as i find them more challenging and enjoyable. Like i say i’v been in the money 23% of the time and out of those 50% have been where i’v got the final table. I’m not trying to sound big headed, but i’v only been knocked out of the money 90% of the time due to luck, not based on bad bets thats why i’m wondering if i would be better suited in higher stakes. Not trying to say i’m a pro in the making, its just the frustrating calls i get which then knocks me out when they catch a turn or flop with bad cards..

I think i will make a deposit

I would say to stick to lower buy-ins. 4.40 buy-ins with a bankroll of 10.00 is not a good option. Lower tournaments and stay away from ring tables until you have raised your bankroll is my suggestion. There is a big difference between cash tables and tournaments. As a beginner I would suggest staying on the SNG until you have played a little longer and learned more about the game.

The Cardschat freerolls have far better play in them than the micro buyin MTTs you're playing. I'd suggest staying active, get your post count up & get playing in some of these freerolls (you'll find some really good players in them actually).
Try posting some HandHistory examples for advice.
Yes it'll get frustrating with so many loose callers in early levels (even in later levels but not as many).. and probably TONS of limping, weird betting (ie. one player 'minraises' the limpers & ridic stuff like this).
You have to try to make adjustments for the players on your table (ie. typically in early levels if I wake up with big pr. AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQs I'm raising 3x.... but in the super micros you may have to raise to 5x (so it doesn't turn into a mass-multiway pot).
If you're in Late Pos., you obviously want to be 3-betting them (re-raising) & typically your raise size should be ~3.5x the size of their raise,... maybe even 4x it). ie. you have KK on BTN, (20/40) MP raises to 120, folded to you... raise it to 400,... if MP raises to 120 & there's one caller... raise it to ~480.
If there's a limper and two callers... you're on BTN with KK... raise 3x +1bb per limper (in very early levels... make it 4x +1bb).
If there's 2 limpers (25/50) and you're in SB with KK...raise 4x +1bb per limper.. so.. raise to 300 (when you're out of position you want to add ~1bb to your raise.. so 4x instead of 3x).
Also, in early levels if you're on a super loose donk table.. and there's a EP raise & two callers... nothing wrong with just shipping in the pile as you'll be amazed by what they'll call down with once they've invested a few chips into the pot (< obviously not what you want to be making a regular practise of... & am referring to the 1500chip donkaments.. not 3,000 chip ones).
Just a few examples of adjustments to make here for ya... Raise more!
Also, in early levels you'll be getting HUGE implied odds to call behind in LP with sm prs. & SC's (and speculative hands).. cuz if you hit you'll surely get stacks in vs. someone who can't fold TopPr. or an overpair.
In super micros you'll typically run into a few types of fish... one is the weak/tight, and loose pass. callingstation.. and another the way over aggro,over-valuing spewtard. Adjust to each accordingly...
ie. vs. the overaggro donk... tend to c/C with monsters & let them hang themselves... also look to check-raise more (but depends on just how spewy villain is),.. and call them down lighter than you typically would.
Vs. the LooseCalling station (probably the most commone of the 3 fish types... but depends on your table).. just value bet the hell out of them.. ie. you flop a set... "BET".. don't slowplay ever! If you flop TPTK (top pr. top kicker)... BET BET BET. (with draws, I'd tend to just check behind a loose calling station.... semi-bluffing with draws isn't as good of a strategy to use vs. Loose Calling station.. chances are they're paying you off when you hit anyways if they have any piece of the board... at least some of them anyways)... on the contrary.. vs. a weak/tight player you're semi-bluffing/betting out with draws all day long (pretty much)... ie. you flop a flush draw.... BET.
Maybe some of this will help ya?
Books
Best book to pick up for a beginner (beginner here meaning... someone who knows how to play the game (nlhe) & has a bit of a grasp about playing the game... not a total rank amateur).. is -->>>
Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book"
Then, if Tournament play (NLHE) is where you're interest is.. check out >
Harrington On Holdem Vo.1 'Tournament Play'
Harrington On Holdem Vol.2 "End Game play'
(make sure you pick up the 'tournament' books by Harrington as he also has a 'cash game' series. His tournament books are his first released books & are very, very good for giving a player a decent foundation from which to work from for NLHE Tournament play).
Now... if you choose to go the route of SNG's (9plyr. sng), grab a copy of Collin Moshmann's SNG Strategy. (well worth the cost if you can't pick it up at a library).
An investment in the books above will be worth it 100%. There's also a decent chance you can get them through your local library (an inter-libary book loan if they don't have it on their shelves).
You seem keen on the game... I would guarantee you that if you were to read the books above & study them thoroughly (in order suggested).. you would be a winning player in the micro limits online ( $1 - $10 buyin MTT's or SNG's). Phil Gordon's book(s) & Harrington's are very well-written as well (easy to follow along with many hand history examples, unlike many poker books out there).
Maybe make a deposit of $50 as well, as you'll typically want to have ~40-50buyins in your bankroll for the level you're playing at.
An example of a bankroll builder in the micros...
There's a SNG (9plyr) satellite to the 'BigLittle Tournament' on Fulltilt.
THe buyin is 0.70+0.10 (14% rake/tourney fee which is less than many of the $1 sng's you'll find online that charge 20cents fee.. which is way too high in the 'longrun'). The top 3 players each win a $2.20 entry to the Tournament (so.. Fulltilt is actually adding 30cents to the prizepool in each of these,lol).
Last night I played in one of these for the hell of it.. but also because I'm planning on playing that $2 donkament on the weekend anyways (cuz it's got a guar. prizepool of $100K & has a TON of overlay in it.... because there's never even close to 50,000 players in it... so it's a very good "value-added" tourney for the microdonk,.. not sure what 1st place pays out but at the moment there are 16,903 player reg'd for it.. & they have 1st listed as paying out $9,000.... not too bad imo.. someone has to win it).
Okay.. so where I'm going with this is... after the game I took a screenshot & out of curiousity I ran the players names listed in the game. 6 of them had an avg. buyin of less than $1 (some only 50cents.. cuz there are some other even cheaper SNG sattys to play in... the Daily$1 ones... I think they're 30cents). I was curious to see if these players were mostly playing this satellite sng.. & if they were, were any of them profiting much by playing them. Well.. I was a bit surprised (but not overly as I've seen this sort of thing before in the super micros).. 4 of them were making money (1 guy's avg. buyin was $10 and he was down quite a bit.. another's was $2.50 and also a losing player... a couple others had avg. buyin <$1 and were also losing BUT the other 4 were all winning players with avg. buyin 0.65 ->0.90... One had played around 150 games & actually had an ROI of +120%!!! (he was up quite a bit from these super micros)... 2 others were up around $70 & the other was up ~$25. Not too bad for just playing that satellite SNG (turbo) 9-plyr. game. < This is something I'd recommend to a new player starting out. AND... just stick to the ONE game type & keep playing that ONE game til' you have a very good understanding of how to play them (it doesn't take a long time to learn how to play 9plyr. SNG's... it's quite simple/easy (but gets a bit more complicated as you move up in buyins where alot of the other players are also good SNG players.. where stuff like ICM & a very good shove/fold game is essential... along with a bunch of other stuff... but in the super micros it's not all that necessary as long as you have a basic but decent/solid understanding of the game, you should be able to profit from them fairly easily). There are a bunch of good SNG strategy guides available online. (Collin Moshmann's book would be the way to go though... if you can get yourself a copy of it).
In other micro buyin sng's I've also found alot of players who've put in a very large volume of games (ie. 500+) at the lowest levels and have built up a bankroll & have moved up in buyin levels (I don't play STT/SNG that often anymore but in the past I've seen players in the $10's with a low avg. buyin with a decent roll, tons of games played & who've obviously made the grind through the super micros successfully & are now winning players at a moderately higher buyin ($10).
Summing up here (as I've gotten motivated/carried away here a bit... hope it's of some benefit for some..???) I'd strongly suggest to READ THE BOOKS (at least Phil Gordon's).. then find a couple of decent strategy articles (& if MTT play.. get the HOH series... & Moshmann's SNG Strategy for SNG's). Stick at first to 9plyr. SNG super micro... learn to beat it.. build a roll... grind it out (start adding on more tables.. at first just play one table & work on your bet-sizing, shove/fold game, value-betting, and then 'playing the players'... once you've got a solid foundation 'then' starting adding on more tables.. one more... then maybe up to 3 at a time for awhile. (but.. it's okay to just stick with only one table at a time for awhile... "perfect practise makes perfect").
Then.. if MTT is where you want to go.. read HOH and start playing some low buyin MTT's occassionally too. The thing is... with MTT play I wouldn't recommend just starting out with them...because it's quite common to go for quite a few tourneys between taking down a decent-sized cash in them (in the super micros it's more common to be in the money ~20-25%+... but not many of those cashes will be of any significant size). It's much easier to build the roll with SNG play at first, build up the roll then start adding in the MTT play.
You might also want to consider first playing some 45plyr. SNG's & 90plyr. & 180's prior to MTT's as they'll give you a good introduction to the various stages of the game & the adjustments you'll be needing to make along the way (in the tourney... ie. as blinds are increasing & how it relates to the stack sizes on your table(s) ).
For MTT play the suggested bankroll management is 100buyins for the level you're playing at (this is due to the nature of MTT play (variance).. you can go 20 tourneys in a row with zero cashes.. quite easily,.. especially if you're playing to win & not overly concerned about 'min-cashing'... btw.. all the money in an MTT is at the top, so once we get decent at playing them we should always be aiming to go as deep as possible and to do so we simply must acquire a stack in mid-levels (but this is a topic for another time, lol).
ok.. ending it there.. Good Luck

id only buy in a tourny 10 percent of my bank roll and only play with 10 percent of your bank roll at cash games

Wow, what a post Poker Orifice.

Thank you very much for such an indept input you gave me. Greatly appreciated.
I will try keeping it low for now, still going to increase my bankroll though i think just to be safe. I also try to find out how other low limit players compare when checking OPR website. I have bought the first volume of dan harringtons tournament book and it has helped me a hell of a lot and will be trying out vol.2 very soon. I know you say keep more to SNG's which i did do and still do, but i must admit i love the larger MTT tournaments just to see how far i can go. Best result so far on pokerstars was UK&ireland 1dollar buy in, which i finished 4th in and got 19 dollars return which i gave me massive confidence! Granted, it was only a 350 player tourney and not 1000+ but still very much enjoyed it. I'm going to study as much as i can as i actually find it more enjoyable actually reading about different things rather than playing at the minute. I think that's based on fact if i play poor of go bust in a tournament i go on a bit of a downer and doubt my play a lot, when iv done well in 3 tournaments i felt like i was going to contiune this then had 5 tournaments of poor results which made me think if i got lucky previously! Such an emotional game, in which im trying to control. Will keep you posted, many thanks sir.

Ben.

Also i'd like to thanks everyone else who has gave their input, greatly appreciated.

ps: How do i enquire about these freerolls via cardchat?

Cheers.

Yea, Poker Orifice is a great guy with lots of good advice and experience, and also very generous with information. Good information.

How you determine if you are crushing the games? I guess every player may have his own view, for me, I am crushing the game if I have been constantly increasing my BR, and have risen and stayed above the BR I need to move up to the next buy in level. Me, I would stay at the same level for a while even if I do get my BR high enough for the next level, to make sure its my game and not a heater.

ramdeebam said:

Also i'd like to thanks everyone else who has gave their input, greatly appreciated.

ps: How do i enquire about these freerolls via cardchat?

Cheers.

Click to expand...

Freeroll info is in the FAQs. here: https://www.cardschat.com/faq.php

They are fun, at least the ones I have played. I sadly dont have time often when the CC freerolls are on, I hope to take part more in the fall.

ramdeebam said:

Wow, what a post Poker Orifice.

Thank you very much for such an indept input you gave me. Greatly appreciated.
I will try keeping it low for now, still going to increase my bankroll though i think just to be safe. I also try to find out how other low limit players compare when checking OPR website. I have bought the first volume of dan harringtons tournament book and it has helped me a hell of a lot and will be trying out vol.2 very soon. I know you say keep more to SNG's which i did do and still do, but i must admit i love the larger MTT tournaments just to see how far i can go. Best result so far on pokerstars was UK&Ireland 1dollar buy in, which i finished 4th in and got 19 dollars return which i gave me massive confidence! Granted, it was only a 350 player tourney and not 1000+ but still very much enjoyed it. I'm going to study as much as i can as i actually find it more enjoyable actually reading about different things rather than playing at the minute. I think that's based on fact if i play poor of go bust in a tournament i go on a bit of a downer and doubt my play a lot, when iv done well in 3 tournaments i felt like i was going to contiune this then had 5 tournaments of poor results which made me think if i got lucky previously! Such an emotional game, in which im trying to control. Will keep you posted, many thanks sir.

Ben.

Click to expand...

FYI. Bookmark this cat (Mr Office), he is going places.

Another outstanding read, great advice for all levels of play. Standing ovation!

thanks orifice, i was actually just looking for info on books haha

The biggest difference for me that took me from a losing player to a winning player was moving past the bad beats. Honestly, to me, that was the HARDEST thing to learn other than BRM.

What helped me move past it was realizing one thing...those idiots that call you to the river with Kx then river a K and beat you are the same idiots that FAR MORE OFTEN will call you to the river with Kx and get nothing and pay you off.

Those people who make those plays are losing players. You'll remember when they luck out and beat you, but over the long run, those people are great for you.

Opinions differ on this, but in terms of your bankroll, don't automatically think it's whatever amount you have on each different site. There are players who think this way, but if you have say $2 on one site and $50 on another, then apply a guideline ox X buyins, it means you can only play certain levels on certain sites. Given the opponents' ability at a given level is relatively even across different sites, I figure I can play the same level anywhere provided my total roll is sufficient.

I consider my bankroll to be all the money I have for poker, no matter where it is or how it's split up across various sites. It also includes any money I'm willing to use for poker that happens to be in my pocket or bank at the moment.

To be honest, get good at low stakes before you move up in the stakes. Otherwise you'll be throwing your money away.

The micro stakes are sometimes frustrating, but still very profitable. Maybe you have to make bigger preflop-raisesizes with your ver strong hands to avoid these family pots. Don´t bluff and no fancy play, strictly abc poker. Bankrollmanagement is the key to avoid multiple deposits. Don´t play too high in the beginning, stay in your comfort zone. The advantages in poker aren´t very big, soetimes 60:40, sometimes 55:45 and so on. Losing hands is very normal. I wish you good luck. Climb the ladder !

Its all about volume when you are playing sngs, its not uncommon that even when playing higher stakes you will be running into tilting players or bad player obviously on a much lesser extent to the micro stakes. You have to realise that these are the people that mean poker is still very beatable and you shouldnt be complaining about them!!

As others have said bankroll management is incredibly important I would advise 100 buyins for SNGs and 200 buyins for MTTs. This simply allows you to handles those beats when people call down to the river and spike a king, in the long run you will come out ahead of these people but only if your bankroll is large enough to absorb these beats. Also as you are just starting I would stick to one specific game and try to master it instead of dabbling in everything and never getting a good winning strategy down.

I would definitely echo others advice and say get harrington on tournaments and try to read them as much as possible untill you feel you have good grasp of all the information inside them. Another thing you could try some of the free trials poker training sites, for example I registered on pokersavvy with my card got the 1 week free trial and cancelled it after 6 days with no charge.

Lastly I would advise posting as many hands as possible on these forums for people to answer, maybe you were at fault and you bet sizing allowed the person to calldown on the river very cheaply e.g betting the min into a 500 chip pot. Another good way to improve is to talk to winning players regularly through skype or some other messenger where you can strategy and hands and just sorround yourself in winning poker players and you will get a lot better very quickly!

hope this helps