The new new school

OK, so now everyone knows that TAG isn't "right" any more for tournament poker. It's not good enough. 3xbb preflop raises just aren't done any more, they gave way long ago to 2 1/2, then later the min-raise or the min-raise + a little more. LAG is the way to go, it's the new school. Loose passive has always been a losing form of poker. Now the tables are overrun with the followers of the new LAG style. So now, if everyone is playing LAG against each other, there must be a way to play against those guys by choosing a newer school of thought.....I think I figured out what the new wave is going to be .....

Tight passive. Before you call me an idiot, think about it. People are min-raising, others are calling. But after the flop, the callers in position are trying to take it away from the min-raiser by any means they can, but the min-raiser completely understands what's going on and plays appropriately. Since the initial pots are smaller, but with more people in them, the clever tight passive player can sit there and check and call, but not play all that many hands (like the loose passive would), he can choose which hands to play based on what he's seeing the others do at his table and continue with the ones that are promising. An occasional monster river bluff mixed in with this style might work to take down some timely nice-sized pots.

It might work! Someone try it! OK??

OK, now go ahead and call me an idiot. :icon_pira

holy crap, phil hellmuth joined cardschat

Sounds like a plan,might give it a go..

Dam those fish are going to take over , watch out sharks.

Although it does make alittle sense , I have found that the only way I can get really jucy pots from the LAGs these days is to play passivelly and let them do the betting.
For example - was playing in a pot with a lagg the other day and just called his UTG raise on the BTN with KK.
Flop comes out 10, 8, 2 he bets half pot , I call.
Turn comes 6 that puts a flush draw on the board , he checks , I check (old school would probably say bet because you cant give him a free card )
River 3 he bets 3/4 pot , I 1/3 pot it and he thinks and calls
This Lag is a good player and senses weakness , so by playing this hand passivelly we probably got most value.
I have found that playing passive against the better Lags works because they like to attack weakness but are smart enough to get away from hands when we apply pressure.

its more complicated than that , a tight passive strategy wouldnt do any better than tag , the problem with tight strategies is that you cant depend on cards at all even if they come you may get a bad beat , you may miss and if you do the lag will still outplay you , if you are passive with them you make your situation even worse , its not unusual to miss all the time or lose medium pots with good cards and if you plan to give up when you miss you will eventually see your stack go down and you will be on reshove mode when the antes come into play.

Tight is bad and passive is even more bad unless you plan to incorporate big river bluffs to make up for all the small/medium pots you lost but guess what *this is called lag* , its either play many hands and win small pots or little but win big pots , no matter how you see it you will have to be *lag* to maintain your stack size unless you are very lucky and you hit all the time.

Outplaying lags can be done in many ways , you can be more aggresive than them and scare them or call them on position with a hand like KT and call them to the river , you can be super-tight from ep to mp as well and plan to 4-bet any 3-bet they do to you , those things will work but they are not enough , position and lag play is mandatory if you want to do final tables.

I look at each card in a hand as a new game. Every turn of the cards is a new game. Never a continuation of the same hand.

With this approach, I can go from LAG to TAG in one hand.

My point being... to develop a style which will define you is just a death nell.

Every hand, card, position is the opportunity to play the style which will win the hand.

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No style is correct. You have to understand all these labeled styles, how to recognize them, and when to play them, and how to defend against them.

When most of us learned the game our styles would have probably been called loose passive. We played too many hands and we lost a lot. We learned to tighten up, often a lot, and we lost less. When we finally understand TAG, or even tight passive, we might get to breakeven.

Well, breakeven is not what we want. So we need more, and what is left? We need to learn LAG, LAP, and all other variants of style.

Eventually, we develop a hybrid style that is mostly our own. But part of that hybrid must be that we know how to change things up instantly or slow them down just as fast.

I still remember a unique play money SNG, long ago. I sat in the shadow of a LAG MANIAC. He Shoved every hand. I never played a hand until the very last hand by which time I finished 2nd. This taught me the value of both styles at the extremes.

WiZZiM said:

holy crap, phil hellmuth joined cardschat

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Hahahahaha

kanselau said:

Dam those fish are going to take over , watch out sharks.

Although it does make alittle sense , I have found that the only way I can get really jucy pots from the LAGs these days is to play passivelly and let them do the betting.
For example - was playing in a pot with a lagg the other day and just called his UTG raise on the BTN with KK.
Flop comes out 10, 8, 2 he bets half pot , I call.
Turn comes 6 that puts a flush draw on the board , he checks , I check (old school would probably say bet because you cant give him a free card )
River 3 he bets 3/4 pot , I 1/3 pot it and he thinks and calls
This Lag is a good player and senses weakness , so by playing this hand passivelly we probably got most value.
I have found that playing passive against the better Lags works because they like to attack weakness but are smart enough to get away from hands when we apply pressure.

Click to expand...

Exactly what I'm talking about. I took a lot of money off an extreme LAG during levels 1-2 recently at the Venetian when I called him down all the way and I had 10 10 on a J hi board. He was so sure his big river bet would scare me away. I called so he had to show first, it was total garbage that had missed everything. Murmering went on by the 2 players to my right and the maniac thought they were talking about him and got extremely angry at them, rude and pretty much out of control. LAG works so well with these players most of the time early in the tournament that they can't stand it when someone beats them in even a single solitary pot. These guys beat me over and over and over and over and over again, and I only get a little bit impatient and a little bit upset, yet when they lose even one pot, they are livid with unreasonable anger. There must be a way to use that personality trait they have to win more pots against them.

kanselau said:

Dam those fish are going to take over , watch out sharks.

Although it does make alittle sense , I have found that the only way I can get really jucy pots from the LAGs these days is to play passivelly and let them do the betting.
For example - was playing in a pot with a lagg the other day and just called his UTG raise on the BTN with KK.
Flop comes out 10, 8, 2 he bets half pot , I call.
Turn comes 6 that puts a flush draw on the board , he checks , I check (old school would probably say bet because you cant give him a free card )
River 3 he bets 3/4 pot , I 1/3 pot it and he thinks and calls
This Lag is a good player and senses weakness , so by playing this hand passivelly we probably got most value.
I have found that playing passive against the better Lags works because they like to attack weakness but are smart enough to get away from hands when we apply pressure.

Click to expand...

ugh this does suck for smart LAG play. This is why I back off on the river I have gotten nailed with this type of play a few times. I think this type of play is why the pre and post flop raising has gone to smaller raises.

WiZZiM said:

holy crap, phil hellmuth joined cardschat

Click to expand...

Haha, nope, phil hellmuth calls everyone else an idiot. I want you guys to go ahead and call me one.

zingbust said:

Haha, nope, phil hellmuth calls everyone else an idiot. I want you guys to go ahead and call me one.

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Wrong forum.

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zingbust said:

Exactly what I'm talking about. I took a lot of money off an extreme LAG during levels 1-2 recently at the Venetian when I called him down all the way and I had 10 10 on a J hi board. He was so sure his big river bet would scare me away. I called so he had to show first, it was total garbage that had missed everything. Murmering went on by the 2 players to my right and the maniac thought they were talking about him and got extremely angry at them, rude and pretty much out of control. LAG works so well with these players most of the time early in the tournament that they can't stand it when someone beats them in even a single solitary pot. These guys beat me over and over and over and over and over again, and I only get a little bit impatient and a little bit upset, yet when they lose even one pot, they are livid with unreasonable anger. There must be a way to use that personality trait they have to win more pots against them.

Click to expand...

Good LAGs dont tilt that much, I dont think that going on tilt is a LAG trait.
I do belive that being passive against a LAG can be more profitable against a good LAG , but then again against a bad LAG who is on tilt an agressive aprouch can work also as they are so bad too agressive and cant fold.
But i totaly agree that a hybrid style is the best aproach , if you can master all styles of play you will be able to take advantage of each style in the right moment.

JusSumguy said:

I look at each card in a hand as a new game. Every turn of the cards is a new game. Never a continuation of the same hand.

With this approach, I can go from LAG to TAG in one hand.

My point being... to develop a style which will define you is just a death nell.

Every hand, card, position is the opportunity to play the style which will win the hand.

-

Click to expand...

Maybe you're missing the point of OP's post?
He's referring to how the games in general have adjusted & then making reference to how to adjust to this.

Whether or not you can go from Lag to Tag etc. is of no significance. OP is referring to adjusting to trends of regs. in today's game.

WiZZiM said:

holy crap, phil hellmuth joined cardschat

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lol so true x D

@ DJ11= love the answer agree with you fully
@OP= you shouldnt play a particluar style all the time. You must adjust your style according to whether your playing a tournament , a sit N go, cash or a hyper turbo 6max.

Moreover, you must adjust your playing style to your table dynamics and try to use the one that is most profitable depending on the playing style of your opponent. there should never be any fixed style but your playing style shouldalways change accordingly.

i personally play lag but lately am working on the skill to be able to switch gears if i see that someone is playing more lag than me or if i see that the table is full of calling stations.

you arent an idiot and its cool you are thinking about the game, but it doesnt make sense sorry, firstly good players are loose because the average tournament player lets them. if a decent reg is playing at a table of 95/0 you can be sure he would run at like 22/5 and still be crushing.

secondly the number of lag players in a tournament is typical around 10-1 with the nits and loose fish and punters, there are alot less of them around than you think. the problem with playing too tight is people just dont play pots with you where ever your strategy is unbalanced.

eg, if you only run at 8/8 pre, i would raise into you every hand and check/fold almost all flops if your cbet float was super high (which makes sense with such a tight range). equally if you play like 11/4 with a high fold to cbet, i will just raise into you, cbet and give up. you dont get paid and more importantly you never ever pick up any dead money. playing loose is simply a way of exploiting the 'holes' or leaks in your strategy and punishing you for it.


another way of thinking about it is this, if the 4/1 calls pre, and has a 95% fold to cbet, I can snap fold AA on a J/3/7/5 board when you call the flop because your range is super tight, and it doesnt matter because my cbet was already profitable.

cliffs:

1/ you dont pick up dead money often enough
2/ you make your raising/3betting ranges too easy to play against v anyone decent
3/ you miss value v loose passive fish
4/ you make your flatting range exploitable
5/ you cannot bet for thin value
6/ the strategy is fundamentally unbalanced
7/ generally speaking it is less of a mistake to be too aggressive than not aggressive enough.