New Member - Second Guessing Today's Tourney Play

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Jasper

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Hi All,

New member here. I am a NLHE player and usually play cash games. Been trying to hone my skills in tournaments and just started playing them at the local card room.

I made a bad play that has me second guessing in today's tournament. I was in a $225 NLHE. We started with $10,000 in chips and after 4 hours I was one of 30something players left from the 144 starters with approx $25k. Blinds were currently $1,000 - $2,000 and I was SB. I was dealt A,3 off suit. I normally muck this hand but there were 4 limpers so I decided to call $1k to see a flop. BB checks for a total of 6 players. Flop comes A, 7, 3 rainbow. I flopped Aces up and started thinking I could really get paid with so many players so acting first I decided to slow play with a check. I keep beating myself up over this one...

Everyone checks around and the turn is a 6. Now I bet $6k and everyone but one of the chip leaders folds. He calls.

River is an 8 and I go all in. He calls and flips over pocket 8s. His set beats my Aces up and send me packing.

I am second guessing so much here and think this play was really bad. After the flop Aces and Threes was a good hand, but nowhere near the nuts. I should have pushed right there instead of trying to induce more action. I think by checking, my opponent didn't figure me for an A and thats why he called on the turn. I also think I should have pushed at the turn. Guess I got what I deserved for slow playing.
 
Debi

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Moving this to tournament poker.

Was there an ante in this game?
 
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BlueNowhere

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Fold pre. Alot of fish seems to do retarded things like limp hands like AT (or 88), which is why I wouldn't shove. Also you can nearly guarentee someone has an Ace in their hand that beats yours and live fish don't lay down top pair. You don't even have close to implied odds to be looknig to hit two pair or better. Pre is a fold and it's not paticular close. Although calling is pretty much the worst thing you can do. Flop I'm just leading out and obv gii.
 
JusSumguy

JusSumguy

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I agree with Blue. Fold pre.

However, since you were in the hand with Aces up, here's where you went wrong.

The object is to get involved with OTHER ACES. You need to bet big so the draws fold. Now you're solid.

Slow play is slow death.

-
 
xUnrated

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Not sure that Blue saw you had two pair but heres my two cents..

Im assuming 9 players with 6 limpers in for 2k blinds. I dont mind your limp in with with ace rag with so many in the pot and its only 1k.

Pot before flop comes: $13,800

That is more than 50% of your stack.

I dont like the check here though. It makes you decide what to do instead of others. You have two pair on a rainbow board with no possible draws. No one has a big pair as it stayed 2k. No one has trip aces, unlikely someone limped with 77 or even A7 unless its the BB. 33 was probly folded if it was dealt.

If you make a bet here it would have to be over half pot so $7,000 plus giving people 4:1, not considering multiple callers. At this point the turn doesnt really matter. You have $16k at best with pot being $27,000+ so the only move you have is shoving giving people close to 3:1 to call.

In your situation I push after you flop two pair. If they fold around you increase your stack significantly and are greatly ahead of any AJ+ that makes the call.
 
Debi

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I asked about the ante not because it changes what I would do but to point out to you that you are shortstacked and can only shove or fold.

I fold A3os all day long in the sb - unless it folds to you then you should shove into the bb.

As played pre-flop your only option post flop is to shove.
 
vegasjj

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I found the question and the answer very interesting - sorry OP - you were so close - and I can just guess how it eats you the "i should have".

In responses.. I totally understand and agree with the shove post flop, but I do not understand why calling from SB with 1k to enter that size of pot is a bad move? Why would it be better to leave the 1K SB had to put it anyway and not give an opportunity to your cards - actually almost no matter what your cards might be?
 
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BlueNowhere

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I found the question and the answer very interesting - sorry OP - you were so close - and I can just guess how it eats you the "i should have".

In responses.. I totally understand and agree with the shove post flop, but I do not understand why calling from SB with 1k to enter that size of pot is a bad move? Why would it be better to leave the 1K SB had to put it anyway and not give an opportunity to your cards - actually almost no matter what your cards might be?
Because we do not have the odds to call. Reverse implied odds are worse than implied odds.
 
prepare

prepare

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I disagree

Unless your playing some really tough players, four limpers, your short stacked with and M less than 10 with several limpers with and Ace. Shove pre the pot alone right there with 6 players post flop and and 6 - 8 players ante is more than half your stack.

Bad players are going to fold because the see your shove. Think damn, a shove, and fold.

Good players should know that your shoving range is not that good and call you down with good hands which will be things that will dominate you like bigger aces, mostly any pair. but they will also call you with some hands your good against, suited Broadway cards (technically more likely a flip here), some unsuited Broadway cards that you will find yourself ahead a good amount of the time. and can always suck out if they do call.
 
Debi

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I found the question and the answer very interesting - sorry OP - you were so close - and I can just guess how it eats you the "i should have".

In responses.. I totally understand and agree with the shove post flop, but I do not understand why calling from SB with 1k to enter that size of pot is a bad move? Why would it be better to leave the 1K SB had to put it anyway and not give an opportunity to your cards - actually almost no matter what your cards might be?


Because he only has 8 big blinds effectively. He can't afford to do anything except shove. (or fold which is what he should do). Plus A3os sucks post flop with that many people in the hand. Any other A beats him. He either misses the flop and folds or hits an A and is beat. Everybody in the hand has position on him. He can't throw away 1k chips with his hand/stack/position hoping to flop a monster.
 
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Jasper

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Ok, so to clarify I usually never play A3os. I agree that it's a garbage starting hand. The issue was that i was short stacked and the increasing blinds. After 4 callers and the antes and BB I was Risking $1k to see a flop in a $13k pot. Also, with only the BB to follow I didn't think a PF raise would come. I would likely have called worse hands in the same position just because imo the situation called for it. My issue with my play is not the decision to play the hand, but the fact that I didn't go all in when I flopped 2 pair in order to protect my hand.
 
Debi

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Your decision to play the hand by calling pre-flop is a very bad decision. You are almost never ahead post flop with that hand. $1k in chips is way too much of your stack.

You will blind out of tournaments if you keep doing that. :)

And yea not shoving post flop was a very bad decision. However you know that now and that lesson has been learned.

The best thing you can do for yourself now is learn the lesson on your pre-flop play so that you don't to make those kind of costly mistakes going forward.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Ok, so to clarify I usually never play A3os. I agree that it's a garbage starting hand. The issue was that i was short stacked and the increasing blinds. After 4 callers and the antes and BB I was Risking $1k to see a flop in a $13k pot. Also, with only the BB to follow I didn't think a PF raise would come. I would likely have called worse hands in the same position just because imo the situation called for it. My issue with my play is not the decision to play the hand, but the fact that I didn't go all in when I flopped 2 pair in order to protect my hand.
The fact that you don't think the issue is pre-flop is a major cause for concern. Your pre flop play will see you absolutely haemorrhage chips. Post flop is a very minor mistake in comparison to pre.
 
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Jasper

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@Blue- I lasted 4 hours in the tournament by only playing good starting hands. Prior to this hand I lost a lot of chips with pocket 9s, which left me with a short stack.

What do you suggest is a better strategy late in a tourney once you are short stacked?
 
talking2rocks911

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Limping with Ace Rag, or calling with ace rag ... especially off suit... is a very very bad idea... you could have hit A,3,3 on that flop and you still would have lost... play good hands and you will win more.
If i Play ace rag it is without a dought suited.. and unless 2 more of that suit come down... im folding, even with an ace hitting the flop
 
Debi

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I won't answer since you asked Blue - even though knowing how to play a short stack is considered to be one of my strongest skills and I have won or final tabled multiple tournaments after being left with a short stack. :p
 
cardriverx

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folding is definitely the best decision pre-flop. One could argue that you could shove pre-flop because there's a ton of $$ in there and there's a chance you could take it down but I think A3 is a terrible hand to do this as you only getting called by better As and pairs -- I don't even think KQ would call in this scenario.

Fold pre.

Shortstack strategy? Shove when first to act in late position to steal blinds -- other than that wait for a good hand to 3-bet shove. With such loose (passive?) players at your table you can probably get paid off with a premium.
 
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baudib1

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MTTs are profitable because of stuff like this. Pre is a disaster. Keep that in mind. A mistake and not a small one. TBH looks like you should have been sticking it in somewhere before getting down to a stack this unplayable, but who knows, maybe you just lost a big pot or something.

As played just stick it in on the flop and hope some tard limped AQ or something. The fact that you lost the hand doesn't matter, btw.
 
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BlueNowhere

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@Blue- I lasted 4 hours in the tournament by only playing good starting hands. Prior to this hand I lost a lot of chips with pocket 9s, which left me with a short stack.

What do you suggest is a better strategy late in a tourney once you are short stacked?
Not limping, shipping wide from LP, 3-bet shoving wide over weak ranges. Sometimes you have to wait for the right spot and not getting impatient and shoving in the wrong spot.
 
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Everyone else may, but I still dont disagree with the preflop limp. 4% of your stack to increase by over 50% and probly a lot more if you hit a wheel, trips, or two pair like you did. Its not usually a good play at all to limp Ace-rag off but poker, especially tournament poker is theory, and I believe an argument can be made for the limp here because that 1k is roughly 4% of your stack, you already have 1k invested, and when you hit a good hand you get paid off. Your only mistake was post flop. Either you double or everyone folds and you get a good stack increase.

If you miss or just hit an ace you fold, and that extra 1k you put in doesnt change your tournament play after the hand because of your stack size making it push or fold until the blinds come back around.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Everyone else may, but I still dont disagree with the preflop limp. 4% of your stack to increase by over 50% and probly a lot more if you hit a wheel, trips, or two pair like you did. Its not usually a good play at all to limp Ace-rag off but poker, especially tournament poker is theory, and I believe an argument can be made for the limp here because that 1k is roughly 4% of your stack, you already have 1k invested, and when you hit a good hand you get paid off. Your only mistake was post flop. Either you double or everyone folds and you get a good stack increase.

If you miss or just hit an ace you fold, and that extra 1k you put in doesnt change your tournament play after the hand because of your stack size making it push or fold until the blinds come back around.
The limp is bad, I don't know what else I can say, it's pretty much the worst thing to do ainec.
 
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Jasper

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I won't answer since you asked Blue - even though knowing how to play a short stack is considered to be one of my strongest skills and I have won or final tabled multiple tournaments after being left with a short stack. :p
Dakota - would love to hear your opinion too.
Given the same situation I would still limp here PF. Unless I flop 2 pairs, set of 3s or a straight / OESD I'm not putting any more chips in there. If I get one of the above I am shoving after the Flop.
 
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Jasper

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I am in no way advocating playing Ace Rag and never do unless it's suited. If suited unless I see 2 of my suit on the flop or flop a boat I'm out. It was late in the tourney and I would rather put in the Min to see if I had a good flop than keep getting chipped away. At that point one time around costs me $5000. This means that 2-3 times around with no catch and I'm pretty mych dead. At least with the limp where I did I had a lot of chips if I hit my flop. Would only put money in that pot on either blind or the button. Any raises before me and I'm out.
 
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