Never give up

fletchdad · Jul 4, 2010

Now I aint the best poker player around by far. I am getting better, but have leaks that could sink a fleet of ships.

Ive made this kind of post before, but just went through it again. It does not matter what you get beat by, even if you have only 1 BB left, never give up.

I was chip leader and this happened. I am just going to say that by what I had seen by the players here so far, I considered my plays to be ok for the situation. My play can definitely be questioned, but I was playing the table, and still dont think I was too far off the mark, like the first hand, I had seen villain aggressively raise middle pair before already.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (SB) (t4680)
BB (t2435)
UTG (t1660)
MP (t1265)
CO (t1305)
Button (t2155)
Hero's M: 15.60
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, 10

4 folds, Hero bets t400,
BB calls t200
Flop: (t800) A

, Q

, 3

(2 players) Hero bets t800, BB raises to t2035 (All-In),
Hero calls t1235 Turn: (t4870) 8

(2 players, 1 all-in) River: (t4870) K

(2 players, 1 all-in) Total pot: t4870 Results: Hero had Q

, 10

(one pair, Queens). BB had 9

, A

(one pair, Aces). Outcome: BB won t4870

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (Button) (t2245)
SB (t4870)
BB (t1660)
UTG (t1265)
MP (t1305)
CO (t2155) Hero's M: 7.48
Preflop: Hero is Button with 10

, Q

1 fold, MP bets t400, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1200, 2 folds, MP raises to t1305 (All-In), Hero calls t105 Flop: (t2910) 8

, 6

, 5

(2 players, 1 all-in) Turn: (t2910) 7

(2 players, 1 all-in) River: (t2910) 7

(2 players, 1 all-in) Total pot: t2910 Results: Hero had 10

, Q

(one pair, sevens). MP had J

, J

(two pair, Jacks and sevens). Outcome: MP won t2910

SO I am down to 940, Blinds 100/200. It is so easy to just give up here. Get mad, go all in with 5 3 os (my next hand, I folded)

Anyway I decided to take my 4 1/2 BB and win, and the last hand looked like this:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds (2 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (BB) (t11060)
SB (t2440) Hero's M: 18.43
Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, K

SB calls t200,
Hero bets t1200, SB raises to t2000, Hero raises to t2800, SB calls t440 (All-In)
Flop: (t4880) A

, 8

, 10

(2 players, 1 all-in)
Turn: (t4880) J

(2 players, 1 all-in)
River: (t4880) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in) Total pot: t4880 Results: SB had 9

, 9

(one pair, nines). Hero had A

, K

(one pair, Aces). Outcome: Hero won t4880

Never give up, always play as if you can still win, and maybe you can.

isaac · Jul 4, 2010

how did you place in the tournament?

Kenzie 96 · Jul 4, 2010

It's usually not so much a matter of giving up, the larger point being made in most of this sort of thread is that waiting for a good hand & thus sacrificing what fold equity you may have when you are very short stacked, as opposed to shoving in position with ATC is usually a mistake. Have to also disagree that calling off half your stack with Q10o in that situation qualifies as an OK play.

rounder22 · Jul 4, 2010

I never give up just became bubble boy the last few oh well.

fletchdad · Jul 5, 2010

isaac said:
how did you place in the tournament?

It was a 9 man sng and I won. That was the last hand posted above, where I knocked out the last player. But the point was not the win (well ok, maybe that as well

) but that after going in two hands from chip leader to SS, I kept playing solid poker whereas I used to get mad and all in as A SS when that happened. If I had done that I would have been out, but I shook it off, and kept playing like I meant it (and got fkn lucky as well). As long as you have a shot, always try to make it count. Your not out till your out.

fletchdad · Jul 5, 2010

Kenzie 96 said:
It's usually not so much a matter of giving up, the larger point being made in most of this sort of thread is that waiting for a good hand & thus sacrificing what fold equity you may have when you are very short stacked, as opposed to shoving in position with ATC is usually a mistake. Have to also disagree that calling off half your stack with Q10o in that situation qualifies as an OK play.

Yea, it was not. BUT, I had been watching this player, and I am not sure I would not make this play against him again. Sure it was a gamble and I lost, but having watched him play I really thought he was trying to bluff me off. But yes my play was questionable. Ans yes, I feel against this particular player justified.

As far as fold equity goes, I think that to have followed two beats in a row with an all in would have been insta call for any decent hand, and I had 3 5 os, and a few hands till the blinds, so it payed off to wait. I did obviously have push real soon after but didnt let my beats control my pushing. I obviously had some luck as well.

Poker Orifice · Jul 5, 2010

fletchdad said:
Yea, it was not. BUT, I had been watching this player, and I am not sure I would not make this play against him again. Sure it was a gamble and I lost, but having watched him play I really thought he was trying to bluff me off. quote]

This ^ is a common leak ("thought he was trying to bluff me!").
Firstly..... why bet "POT" on that flop... a bet of 3/5 pot will get you the same result. (if you were really ready to get it ai there vs. villain.. & you figured he'd be bluffing at it... then why not check-raise them allin instead?)
With villain sitting on a bigger stack then the rest of the table I would strongly believe that they wouldn't be making a move here & that they are truly repping the "A" (which you could've discovered more cheaply).

Going to the thread title... for sure.."Never give up!".. just let go of the past & move on to play the moment to the best of your ability. I so often see players who have a good stack (in an MTT), lose a BIG pot to a villain/fish who 'shouldn't' have been in the hand in the first place... ie. my QQ flopped top set which I played fast vs. this monkey & he calls off a 3/4pot bet on flop for a big chunk of his stack with a gutter, then setting villain up for a pot-sized turn shove that will put them allin.. they actually call w weak 3rd pr. & gutterball & the fk'r hits it!! Then shortly thereafter they go & punt 25bb's with a resteal shove vs EP obv. pot committed preflop raise by tight opponent. Just need to adapt to new stack size & play it accordingly... the "I shoulda won", "THey shoulda" stuff carried over is a waste of time & puts one in the wrong headspace to play future hands optimally.
Some of my better cashes/placings have come after taking a huge beat just prior to the bubble. I've taken a 4th in a fairly large field tourney (not large 'buyin'.. large 'field', lol) after actually getting donked down to 1.5bb's a few players off the bubble. In another I was down to <5bb's just off the bubble then actually moved to Top5 in a few mins. (field of ~700 players) & ended up in 5th for a 4-figure cash.
You just never know.... "Never Give Up!" <<< good advice!

Poker Orifice · Jul 5, 2010

Taken from Jennifear's "The Mistakes LowBuyin SNG players are making the most"

"Not believing opponents might have a hand

Many players are calling big bets with marginal hands, failing to realize the bettor may very well have a hand. Some players instantly put their opponent on a given hand and keep that thought in their head without an open mind that their initial read could be wrong. They see an opponent bluff once or twice, and then think they have nothing and are just trying to steal the pot. Be sure that you have a solid read before you make a marginal call."

Poker Orifice · Jul 5, 2010

I'm pretty certain you didn't make this post for a critique or analysis of the hands posted (more so for the example of making a comeback by never giving up)... but will add another one for hand example #2.

When MP raises here with such a shortstack they are obviously 100% committed to get it in. (it's also typically a VERY strong hand when a player min-raises with a shortstack that is pretty much always a shove/fold hand...... we consider villain's shoving range in this spot.... I'm 'pretty sure' (wasn't there so I don't know how they play).. but it'd be standard for them to be open-shoving 55+, A8s+ (maybe any Ace?), brdwy's (KQ, KJ, KT, QJ), and that their range for raising less than allin preflop would most likely be stuff like AA/KK/QQ/JJ (TT prob just ships it too instead of min-raise to induce a shove). With that in mind, the QT in this spot is a SUPER EZ FOLD. It's far,far,far better to maintain the stack we have than to get it in bad vs. this guy's range.

fletchdad · Jul 5, 2010

Poker Orifice said:
I'm pretty certain you didn't make this post for a critique or analysis of the hands posted

No, my point of this post was more along the lines of when the chips are down, keep your head up, and dont just start pushing to "get it over with, dont matter now" cause it always matters if you are still in the game.

Having said that, I appreciate your comments anyway. You made a lot of sense, and as I started my post off with "Im not the best poker player", you can see that some things I say are just spot on....lol. So thanks for the analysis, its always welcome and helpful. Points made above show me a good way of looking at this situation, and I am always glad to have another (often more sensible) point of view, as I am the first to admit that my leaks are, well, many..........Thanks and keep it comin!!

fletchdad · Jul 5, 2010

Poker Orifice said:
Taken from Jennifear's "The Mistakes LowBuyin SNG players are making the most"

"Not believing opponents might have a hand

Many players are calling big bets with marginal hands, failing to realize the bettor may very well have a hand. Some players instantly put their opponent on a given hand and keep that thought in their head without an open mind that their initial read could be wrong. They see an opponent bluff once or twice, and then think they have nothing and are just trying to steal the pot. Be sure that you have a solid read before you make a marginal call."

Really like this!!

cardplayer52 · Jul 6, 2010

with stacks so low you dont got much room to make an opening raise then have room to cbet then fold the flop. so i think its best to just open jam hands 1 and 3 and fold hand 2. again with stacks so low your looking to just shove allin preflop this increases the likely hood the villain will fold(fold equity) it also keeps you from tough spots if the villian flat calls you and you miss the flop.

BeaverTrump · Jul 6, 2010

1 distribution is in my opinion played absolutely incorrectly, QT not that hand, that with it call re-reise and the more so all-in with Ace on a board when opponent has shown the force 2 consecutive times.
2 distribution - the decision disputable, but for aggressive style of game approaches, especially on chances of bank call all-in 100 %.
3 distribution - all is true.

cibonazg · Jul 6, 2010

you post it what you ve managed to lose or win i one day?
and with hands, ecpecially with first one, wich i wouldn t play...
but my friend "never give up" is a advice people should say after they lose hundreds and thousands of dollars in week or two when they get beated with stronger hands( well at least stronger before river hehe)...
but that is that kind of game...
with smart and rational game you can take down minimum damage to your pocket when you are not on a roll...
never give up hehe

fletchdad · Jul 6, 2010

cibonazg said:
you post it what you ve managed to lose or win i one day?
and with hands, ecpecially with first one, wich i wouldn t play...
but my friend "never give up" is a advice people should say after they lose hundreds and thousands of dollars in week or two when they get beated with stronger hands( well at least stronger before river hehe)...
but that is that kind of game...
with smart and rational game you can take down minimum damage to your pocket when you are not on a roll...
never give up hehe

uhhhh, I think you miss the point....

Poker Orifice · Jul 6, 2010

Sorry for starting a derail here on your post.... sigh.... Maybe I should've just pm'd ya & asked you if you were interested in hearing some comments. Again, Sorry about that!!!
Keep on Posting!!! (it's refreshing reading your posts.... your enthusiasm carries over for sure!!!)

fletchdad · Jul 6, 2010

Poker Orifice said:
Sorry for starting a derail here on your post.... sigh.... Maybe I should've just pm'd ya & asked you if you were interested in hearing some comments. Again, Sorry about that!!!
Keep on Posting!!! (it's refreshing reading your posts.... your enthusiasm carries over for sure!!!)

Just for the record, whether through PM or in the post, derail or not, Im always glad to hear your thoughts on poker.

And derails are kinda the rule here a lot anyway lol, im guilty for sure.

lektrikguy · Jul 6, 2010

fletchdad said:
uhhhh, I think you miss the point....

Totally. Please re-read...

I was in a $3 90 man SNG and was down to 75 chips in the early-middle stage. I waited for my hands, and after a few double ups and stolen pots, I got back into it. Finished 9th. NEVER GIVE UP. The wsop was won by a guy with 1 chip left...

NCfoldem · Jul 7, 2010

I did come back from 1 and a half BB to win a tourney once. Probably a 450 SnG - coulda been 360. But it's still unlikely, let's face it. But I hear ya .... that's my point I guess ... lol.

Pokerstudent · Jul 7, 2010

Orifice,

Fletchdad has shown that he is always interested in improving his game. (I admire that, BTW). He seems to be okay with it. I would hope that anyone who wants to improve their game would never push away good information. Yours is usually good information. I've seen you post.

But I do understand that it might have detracted from the intent of the post. But you recognized it. Way to clear the air.

This is why this site is SO MUCH BETTER than 2+2. People there love to bash. And a feel-good post such as this would be massacred!

Keep it coming guys!

engman · Jul 7, 2010

I agree with you on that mentality of never giving up. Just because you have close to no chips is no excuse to play dumb and shove the very next hand. I applaud you for coming back from such a small chip stack.

Kebo11K · Jul 7, 2010

I enjoy little comebacks like that especially in the 6 people sng's 2 or 3 doubles up and ur chip leader

Never give up

fletchdad

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