Must we always flip?

Hey Guys,

My biggest quirk these days is being in a deep stack tourney in the starting stages, knowing I have the best hand but being faced with an "all in" preflop.

Assuming I have AKsuited, I know the right move is to call against a loose player, especially in position and more than likely facing only one opponent.

Just wondering, how bad of a play is it to just simply fold for the sake of not wanting to flip so early in the tournament? the mindset being "lets play some actual poker instead of racing"

Or is this a losing approach?

For the sake of argument, let assume here that we're not facing AA or KK and this is super early in the tournament. None of my concerns above apply to late stages and facing AA/KK.

Thoughts?

This Question has no Absolute correct answer since the situation depends on many factors, but in General, Personally, I would always say YES to flips In Early stages, so holding AKs in early stages and facing an All in, Is Always a call and its a +EV.

However, as time goes, the Deeper you get, the Deeper your opponent is, you might want to escape from preflop flips, Even with +EV since your chips are more expensive than the Tournament early stages situation

You most certainly want to take these "flips" early on. Having the ability to accumulate and establish a massive chip lead is the easiest path to an MTT victory. I'm probably more aggressive than your average player/CC member, but I have had years of success by playing this way. Of course, I'm not generalizing and saying you should ALWAYS be super aggressive. Like anything, there is balance and it is impossible for me to describe that balance with words.

You could certainly be at an advantage in the early stages as some people have deep pockets and for them to lose is absolutely no big deal so they just shove with any ok cards and if they hit they’ll keep playing super aggressive until middle stages where stuff usually slows down ,if they don’t they’ll move on and shrug it off ..

There's a few things here. If your opponents VPIP is through the roof, then you have to play your strong hands to protect. There's other times where you feel like you need a better spot. If you're afraid of the flip, just remember there's a better spot to play, and move on to the next hand.

You have to take these spots to build those super deep stacks that in turn will help you later fight of the variance during the tourney.

Kalelisback-

Playing how I feel most comfortable, I would opt to fold as you have been doing. It is the classic, AK is not a made hand, and if the spewey villain has gone in with pocket threes he's ahead of you.

I would be a lot more comfortable to challenge if I held KK or QQ but an unmade hand? Not so much in the very earliest of stages/hands.

I try to avoid flips as much as possible in MTT's but to be successful on a tournament you need to win some of those but i try to play flips late on tournaments and against lower stakes so i'm not at risk each time. But when you are short staked you have to shove a'd pray

in the early stages with AKs the logical thing is to go to the flip but I would take into account the buy-ins if it is micro or free it is not necessary to think about it but if it is a high buy-in tournament maybe I am very tigh in this type of tournament, I fold looking to build a stack progressively

If stacks are deep, it can certainly be correct to fold AK preflop. I used to mindlessly get AK in 100BB deep in cash games, and then I complained about always running into AA or KK, because "LOL I have blockers". But the thing is, if your opponents range is only 2 hands, and you block both of these equally much, then blockers dont matter. And for a lot of the nitty regulars in micro stakes cash games, a 4-bet+ still basically mean KK or AA, especially if there was EP action in a full ring game.

Now if we are facing a jam from a "loose player", this of course change the situation, because we dont expect his range to be only the nuts. But if its an open jam for way to many big blinds, its often still not a great spot to call with AK. I have called an open jam from UTG for 75 BB in the first blind level of a SnG more than once, because "LOL I cant fold AK, and he is an idiot". And time after time "the idiot" flip over a hand like 77 or 88, I brick, and I am out of the SnG, before it even started.

And here is the thing. Unless his range contain hands, which AK is actually ahead of, then I was not getting the right price to call. If his range is something like 66-TT and maybe AK as well, then we want to call him with JJ+ not with AK. And often these are the hands, bad players open jam, because they are difficult to play postflop out of position. 66-TT often face overcards on the board, and AK miss two out of three times.

When stacks get down to the more typical tournament situation of 30-40 BB, I am pretty hesitant to fold AK preflop, but I will still do it occationally. If for instance there is an open raise, a 3-bet and a cold 4-bet jam, then I might select to pass, because I am up against 3 players with uncapped ranges, I am not getting a good price, and the player, who cold 4-bet jammed, is showing a lot of strenght. So if I give action here, I end up in to many shitty spots like 3-ways against QQ and another AK.

Generally, I try to avoid flipping for my whole stack early in the tournament. My reasoning is simple. With blinds so low, you can play a wider range of hands and potentially hit a monster hand and win somebody's entire stack with much less risk than a flip. There are usually quite a few players who can't fold their TPTK or over pair hand, so why not see some cheap flops early on ? You can always flip later on when the blinds are getting big.

I think you answered your own question with the question itself - must we always flip? "Flip" implies no tactical advantage, i.e., it's a pure gamble. The real question is - is it the appropriate time to gamble? Or more appropriately - is it ever the right time to gamble? If poker is a game of skill then every decision should have a tactical and/or strategic grounding. A flip may be tactically or strategically correct at times, but never in my mind purely for the purpose of gambling. "Super early in a tournament" would be the latter situation.

when I play live early in a trny ,I hope i've got a read on the player and decide accordingly, online you got to figure your ALWAYS in a race.Live your just playing the odds not having to worry that the deck is going to force that miracle hand that is always there online.People always say whats the difference between live and online its that word forced,playing live you don't have to worry about the house loading up the deck so someone has to lose.In real poker it usually takes awhile online its set up to happen instantly and to me thats got to effect the odds.everyone says no its the hands we all see and play and to that I say bs.Online you can raise 5 times the big blind with aces and somebody will call with like j7.knowing that online theres a good chance that the site will force something. Live you will almost never get that and if you do you crush the donk that called with j7,online you usually end up in some race that should never happened to start with thats difference that and all the artificial help online players use but thats another rant

I must admit that before I liked to play aggressive from the start with a wide range of hands. to be profitable with this strategy it is necessary to have a very good reading of the game and especially to touch a lot of cards. but with time I realized that this strategy was not viable in the long term because generally the variance is always against you. now I prefer to play a game of reduced variance and avoid as much as possible to play flips especially when the blind does not represent much compared to your stack. with this strategy we achieve better results in the long term but we must be rigorous and disciplined to achieve a good mastery of this style of play.

unless I'm sitting at the local rock garden .. and understanding and ak is not made I'm going to play it .. yes I could bust for all ... but I think having a few chips so you can see a min cash is a waste of my time ....either I play .. build a stack that you will go nowhere without later .. or what is the point ... and playing afraid of someone who will shove dueces early is just what it is, I won't play that way .... if stacks are deeper ..later in the tournament ..you have a read and this guy is only playing made paint then yeah maybe ... after the flop and there is a ton that beats my unmade AK yeah I sure can fold but not just because the guy may get lucky with 7 3 off pre-flop happens everyday ... losing to trash is part of the game .... and I won't play afraid of it

I don’t like flipping, no matter what kind of hand I have, but to win or to go deep in tournaments we have to. Maybe it’s better to do it early in tournament, if we lose, we will save some time, because we can always bust later,before bubble and not caching money. If we win, then we are in good shape to go deep.

kalelisback said:

Hey Guys,

My biggest quirk these days is being in a deep stack tourney in the starting stages, knowing I have the best hand but being faced with an "all in" preflop.

Assuming I have AKsuited, I know the right move is to call against a loose player, especially in position and more than likely facing only one opponent.

Just wondering, how bad of a play is it to just simply fold for the sake of not wanting to flip so early in the tournament? the mindset being "lets play some actual poker instead of racing"

Or is this a losing approach?

For the sake of argument, let assume here that we're not facing AA or KK and this is super early in the tournament. None of my concerns above apply to late stages and facing AA/KK.

Thoughts?

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in fact, I would not exhibit with AK more than 40BB. this is not a very profitable solution at a distance, even against a weak player. Especially in a deep stack tournament. Deep stacks are given for that, which would increase the advantage playing better postflop better than others

A-K is garbage early in a tournament. Anyone shoving or calling shoves early in a freezeout tournament with anything other than a premium pair is not thinking clearly. Rebuys a story for another day but it's still foolish to be risking your whole stack that early in a tourney and start bleeding rebuys. There are no "reads" that early in a tourney worth a damn especially online.

kowrip said:

Generally, I try to avoid flipping for my whole stack early in the tournament. My reasoning is simple. With blinds so low, you can play a wider range of hands and potentially hit a monster hand and win somebody's entire stack with much less risk than a flip. There are usually quite a few players who can't fold their TPTK or over pair hand, so why not see some cheap flops early on ? You can always flip later on when the blinds are getting big.

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Great response....I'm of the same mindset, but really end up double guessing when its decision time.

MattRyder said:

I think you answered your own question with the question itself - must we always flip? "Flip" implies no tactical advantage, i.e., it's a pure gamble. The real question is - is it the appropriate time to gamble? Or more appropriately - is it ever the right time to gamble? If poker is a game of skill then every decision should have a tactical and/or strategic grounding. A flip may be tactically or strategically correct at times, but never in my mind purely for the purpose of gambling. "Super early in a tournament" would be the latter situation.

Click to expand...

Thanks MattRyder .... I like the way you phrased it.

However, there is a fine line between tactical / gambling when you decide to flip.

How confident are you in your game? Why play a hand when you don't have a clear advantage? You should have lots of opportunities to flip later in the tourney.

It always comes down to a flip in tournaments why not take one early get some chips and put yourself in good position for rest of tournament if you bust you can do something. If you do not like to flip don't play tournaments play cash games instead.

Not wanting to flip early especially with AK is a loosing play (unless you can see your opponents cards). You loose out on all the times you are in dominating spot e.g. AQ,AJ or KQ. You also loose out on the spots where you would have won the race. It also makes you very exploitable e.g. instead of 4 bet jamming with AK you call the 3bet oop miss the flop and AJ bluffs you out of the pot.

Not my way of doing things but to each his own. I dont mind because I'll call alot of em if I'm feeling it

Very polarizing answers.

Its a FLIP on this thread (lol). half are favoring the call , half favoring the fold