Multitabling SnG's for a profit

steveiam

steveiam

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Is Multitabling SnG's the only real way to show a decent profit. The reason i'm asking is that over the last couple of months i have been concentrating on these and because of time restraints i have only managed to play 196, which is not massive i know.. I have shown a profit of about $80 with a ROI of 12.45%. Is this a good return based on the number of games and it's just a question of increasing the volume or am i going wrong some ware and the return is to low. I know the number is very low but i'm just trying to get a feel for the return. Any comments would be appreciated.
 
Creepy Jackalope

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I assume we are taking about Single Table sng's?

If so then 12.45% is really good. But as you suggest, your sample size is really low.

The variance in sng's is high, and you will have large downswings. 10-20 game losing streaks are common-place, and even larger ones do happen from time to time. Expect it.

Showing a decent profit in these games, at least in my experience is a balancing act between volume, and more importantly not playing more than you can handle, and playing a solid game. Tilting and/or making bad decisions will hurt your bottom line more than multi-tabling will help it.

In fact, making bad decisions, because you're tired, or playing more games than you can handle, is amplified because you're making bad decisions across so many tables.

For me, I find 6 STT's the most I can play optimally. I prefer to stick to just 4. I can play more, but my game suffers and that's not worth it to me. Especially now. The games aren't as easy to beat as they once were.
 
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IvanShovski

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I think that your 12.45% ROI is quite good, particularly when one considers that your average buy-in is about $3.30. The rake at these stakes can be quite high and will significantly diminish your profitability.

A sample size of 196 games is really too small to determine whether your ROI is sustainable. You really shouldn't draw any conclusions until you have played several thousand games.

Multi-tabling may not increase your ROI but it should increase your hourly rate if you are a profitable player. Of course, there is a point of diminishing returns. As Creepy Jackalope says, you should only play as many tables as you can comfortably handle.
 
Creepy Jackalope

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Multi-tabling may not increase your ROI but it should increase your hourly rate if you are a profitable player. Of course, there is a point of diminishing returns.

Exactly.
 
abzdolc

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maybe try to play sng of 1 table or 45 players in
 
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trent32la

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Any profit in sngs is good...a 12.45% ROI isnt a bad one..better than a negative one nonetheless! I play many hyper sngs on carbon...and have found to be profitable in them by just 1-tabling..helps you focus more rather than 8 tabling.. The point is...you dont have to multi-table to profit...but its not a bad idea if your +EV by playing more than 1 table ;)
 
steveiam

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I assume we are taking about Single Table sng's?

If so then 12.45% is really good. But as you suggest, your sample size is really low.

The variance in sng's is high, and you will have large downswings. 10-20 game losing streaks are common-place, and even larger ones do happen from time to time. Expect it.

Showing a decent profit in these games, at least in my experience is a balancing act between volume, and more importantly not playing more than you can handle, and playing a solid game. Tilting and/or making bad decisions will hurt your bottom line more than multi-tabling will help it.

In fact, making bad decisions, because you're tired, or playing more games than you can handle, is amplified because you're making bad decisions across so many tables.

For me, I find 6 STT's the most I can play optimally. I prefer to stick to just 4. I can play more, but my game suffers and that's not worth it to me. Especially now. The games aren't as easy to beat as they once were.

The sample is made up stt and mtt SnG's . Your right tiredness is a factor and it's something i need to take that into consideration.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Depends on the stakes you're playing.

You can 4 table high stakes and make a good return but in micros, it's going to be much smaller obviously. At micros though, volume is key to making a good profit, because players are bad enough you can get away mass tabling just using a HUD and playing a solid game. Of course though, your middle/end has to be good as this is where the profits come from, playing a tight game whilst multi tabling might make you a winner at micros ,but it will certainly limit your profits. If your end game isn't up to scratch you would probably be best playing less tables or even some hyper turbos, so you can get used to all the late stage plays a lot. A LAG approach, stealing and re stealing is key to bigger profits success in SnG's towards the later stages.

For earning more profits in MTT' SnG's in particular, An example is, you find a lot of regs even at micros, all have a solid tight game and are winners in the early/middle stages but their end game is just terrible. Of course they run deep sometimes through just picking up hands or spots but they will play way to tight, their calling and shoving ranges consist of value hands only. They understand stealing, but are very tight with their calling ranges, so if they are opening CO/BTN you can 3B shove them quite wide and expect them to fold hands they shouldn't be. They rarely adjust to your 3betting range will even fold hands as good as 55-99 to 3B shoves for 20bb or even AT/AJ/AQ. To be more successful than these players and have bigger profits is to exploit their tight game. Another example is; exploiting the good LAG who profits better than your average winning tight reg; he opens MP/CO with a wide range, you should be 3B shoving an even wider range with 15-20bb vs the LAG's.

If I grind SnG's I usually play around 10, playing 1-4 just doesn't seem worth it in general unless I'm doing something else.
 
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steveiam

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Depends on the stakes you're playing.

You can 4 table high stakes and make a good return but in micros, it's going to be much smaller obviously. At micros though, volume is key to making a good profit, because players are bad enough you can get away mass tabling just using a HUD and playing a solid game. Of course though, your middle/end has to be good as this is where the profits come from, playing a tight game whilst multi tabling might make you a winner at micros ,but it will certainly limit your profits. If your end game isn't up to scratch you would probably be best playing less tables or even some hyper turbos, so you can get used to all the late stage plays a lot. A LAG approach, stealing and re stealing is key to bigger profits success in SnG's towards the later stages.

For earning more profits in MTT' SnG's in particular, An example is, you find a lot of regs even at micros, all have a solid tight game and are winners in the early/middle stages but their end game is just terrible. Of course they run deep sometimes through just picking up hands or spots but they will play way to tight, their calling and shoving ranges consist of value hands only. They understand stealing, but are very tight with their calling ranges, so if they are opening CO/BTN you can 3B shove them quite wide and expect them to fold hands they shouldn't be. They rarely adjust to your 3betting range will even fold hands as good as 55-99 to 3B shoves for 20bb or even AT/AJ/AQ. To be more successful than these players and have bigger profits is to exploit their tight game. Another example is; exploiting the good LAG who profits better than your average winning tight reg; he opens MP/CO with a wide range, you should be 3B shoving an even wider range with 15-20bb vs the LAG's.

If I grind SnG's I usually play around 10, playing 1-4 just doesn't seem worth it in general unless I'm doing something else.

I think my problem is always going to be putting in enough volume to make the micro's profitable.
 
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RamdeeBen

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I think my problem is always going to be putting in enough volume to make the micro's profitable.

Even if your volume is low and your playing 1 game a day they are still obviously profitable, just at a much much smaller rate.

I guess it comes down to what you mean by profitable, I'm guessing you mean making something significant like say $2k a month then you're going to have to put in some volume. If you just want to have a + ROI% then playing any amount of games will be good but they will always be profitable no matter how many games you play, you just might lose/breakeven for several months if your volume is that low.
 
steveiam

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Even if your volume is low and your playing 1 game a day they are still obviously profitable, just at a much much smaller rate.

I guess it comes down to what you mean by profitable, I'm guessing you mean making something significant like say $2k a month then you're going to have to put in some volume. If you just want to have a + ROI% then playing any amount of games will be good but they will always be profitable no matter how many games you play, you just might lose/breakeven for several months if your volume is that low.

I think what i'm looking at improving my hourly rate without playing loads of tables at the same time.. Which would mean playing with higher buyins.
 
newbie in training

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Or you could load two rables with a dollar more bi and see how that goes 2 tables I habdle pretty easy

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I think what i'm looking at improving my hourly rate without playing loads of tables at the same time.. Which would mean playing with higher buyins.

Obviously your win rate drops the higher you go, what sort of limits are you thinking of with higher?

Not saying you can't beat higher, but playing higher could have the opposite effect of trying to increase your hourly rate, especially if you haven't the experience in the micros. I'd just suggest, even at 4 tables which isn't to many play the $1.50/$3.50's, even though it might take a while, play like 1000 games and see how you're getting on.

Last thing I'd recommend is playing higher until you can prove to yourself you can beat the lowest limits, thus earning an hourly and once you can, then just move up.

If of course you have played higher before and are confident in your play, then go for it.
 
steveiam

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It's interesting if i take the 1.50 & 3.50 out of those original games my ROI goes up to 23.40%.. Again i know this is a very small sample but it does make interesting reading.
 
steveiam

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Do you think its best to play one format, because i seem to flit between 9,18,27 & 45 with buyins from $1.50 to $7.
 
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It's interesting if i take the 1.50 & 3.50 out of those original games my ROI goes up to 23.40%.. Again i know this is a very small sample but it does make interesting reading.

Yeah, like you say, it's likely sample size.

Do you think its best to play one format, because i seem to flit between 9,18,27 & 45 with buyins from $1.50 to $7.

Yeah, I'd say stick to either playing one format as 9man sng's require a different strategy as opposed say he 45man. Although if you're not playing a load of tables or volume it might be ok. If I was mixing 45 mans and 9 man is probably make a lot more mistakes. That's likely due to the amount of the tables I'm playing.
 
steveiam

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Yeah, like you say, it's likely sample size.



Yeah, I'd say stick to either playing one format as 9man sng's require a different strategy as opposed say he 45man. Although if you're not playing a load of tables or volume it might be ok. If I was mixing 45 mans and 9 man is probably make a lot more mistakes. That's likely due to the amount of the tables I'm playing.


Thanks for your input Ram
 
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Are these only thing PROFITABLE?!! NO! I think that the cash games are also highly profiatblae. I really like the omaha h/l cash tables. I have made some decent dough from them.
 
steveiam

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Are these only thing PROFITABLE?!! NO! I think that the cash games are also highly profiatblae. I really like the omaha h/l cash tables. I have made some decent dough from them.

Your right but it does come down to what your prefer to play.
 
newbie in training

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I thinm pmaha and omaha hi low tables would be super juicy as the fish probably wont even know how to play they judt want to have some fun with an interesting game

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