MTTs, when to fold

Hi, I've been playing some MTTs lately on pokerstars and have a fair bit of trouble with them.
I have a question to ask some fairly experienced MTT'ers.
Let's say I'm in a MTT with 3000 entrants and top 500 get paid and we're down to 800.
Average stack is 10 000 chips, I have 7 000.
I'm in SB and dealt AQ offsuit and blinds are 400 and 800.
Loose large stack in late position raise to 2000.
I' ve seen him do this with hands like QJ, 9 10, etc.
Should I push all-in and try to double up, or fold and wait to get in the money before I take chances?
Thanks, I tend to push all in in these situations but tend to lose also.
In this hand I described he showed 10J and flopped a 10.
So I'm thinking in the future I should fold my AQ to a loose large stack and wait for something better?
Any additional PS MTT tips welcome .

The real problem here is the size of your stack, i guess you had been card dead for some time prior to this hand and were unable to steal any pots. I also don't think you would be able to fold to the money from this situation, the blinds are too high and you have too small a stack, i personally become a maniac when my stack is around 10 times the big blind but i would try to chose players with an average stack size and hope they don't have a monster hand to call me with, steal a couple of blinds and build my stack. I am not saying that to push or call is wrong but i would most likely fold in this situation, AQo is a highly ranked starting hand, the problem is that the big stacks are very likely to call in the hope of taking a out a player who's stack cannot hurt them much if they lose.

I would fold the aq in that situation and wait for another decent starting hand that i can play by only posting 1 blind. no reason to call 4x the blind when you're short stacked and so close to cashing, imo.

yea i guess so

okay thx.

So I suppose I'll try to only go against Big stacks with hands Like AA KK QQ.

You're right Big stacks will call with just about anything,

party poker was dealt KQ hearts and short stacked so went all in, called by guy with 9 6o and board had two jacks and two nines on it... that was just a 6 dollar MTT but was in final 46.

Also maybe it's not as much that I should stay away from big stacks because they'll call and might take me out, but because they are luckier than the average player.

Here we go, from your two'ses help I've made a tip:

MTT Tip # 3049:
"Big Stacks Are SuperNaturally Lucky, So Stay Away Unless You Have A Monster To Combat With."

Try and be the first raiser in the pot, don't call raises unless you have a TOP hand, and don't try raising a bigstacks blinds if you're no threat to him, unless he seems very thight.

Basically if your short stacked, know you place and try and pick up some pieces when you can, while you wait for the monster and look to steal from weak players.

This is clearly a shove situation. You have a 7K stack and blinds are 400/800, meaning you have less than 10BBs/M of ~6. Probably less if you include antes.

So, you do not have really have the luxury of sitting around waiting for premium hands with a stack this low. Against a loose player who has been showing much weaker hand, you easily crush his range with AQ and should be happy to get it in. Do not be afraid to fold hands like AQ to a loose big stack, especially when you're a pretty short stack yourself. You need to accumulate chips if you want to make it deep. Had the raiser been a super nit, then folding here would've been a smarter play.

Another thing is, keep in mind that you're still 800 players in and only 500 players get paid, so you still have a long ways before you make the money. And with <10BBs, you're not going to make it if you keep folding these key situations. Next blinds are 500/1000, you'll only have 7BBs. Next blinds even less BBs if you don't double up or better. So, this deep in/still far from the money, worry about how you're going to accumulate chips. Against players like these, with AQ, at worst you're dominated by AA-QQ, AK, and at best you're a coinflip or you have an edge. Get your money in.

NiceNisus said:

So I suppose I'll try to only go against Big stacks with hands Like AA KK QQ.

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Actually, go after the medium stacks, you can go after the big stacks with premium hands, but its the medium stacks you want to go after. Why?

Big stacks will have no problem calling you if you're a really short stack and it doesn't cost them much. It's not exactly about them being lucky. Usually, they might be priced in, especially late with so much dead money in the pot or it's only costing them a small percent of their stack to try and bust you. With small stacks, they're desperate and will gladly get their stack in with anything that looks decent. Medium stack are your perfect targets, they're not short stack and they're not big stacks. They usually wont risk calling with weak hands because they dont want to risk losing and being SS or busted and they usually wont get involved in a pot unless they have some type of hand. Attack them.

Also, don't be result oriented. You made the right move and got unlucky.

gadgetfiddler said:

I would fold the aq in that situation and wait for another decent starting hand that i can play by only posting 1 blind. no reason to call 4x the blind when you're short stacked and so close to cashing, imo.

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You would wait for a better hand so you can limp in while you're short stack? Please explain your reasoning for this play. Also, 800 players/500 cashing is not close to the money.

Thanks Philthy, you are right as usual, i may play too conservatively when short stack. I excuse this because the value of chips in a tourny changes as your stack size changes, i think, so the less chips you have the more value each chip has. I would be more ready to push if i thought the big stack would fold, i don't like going all-in pre-flop in tourny's nor risking the tourny on one hand.
However much i dislike it the correct move is to push as you are likely to be between 20-40% favourite. I would like to hear any thoughts you have on how to avoid becoming so short stacked, any changes to the way you play when your stack is less than average?
( Not sure if i should start a new thread as the subject is the same ).

Yep. I`m with Phil here

right or wrong I try not to change my way of playing when I get near the bubble.

So, look at this hand another way, if u were in the $$$ would you have called?

It is my opinion that if u answer `yes` to this question, u push.

I could be way off, btw

dvd-GT said:

I would be more ready to push if i thought the big stack would fold, i don't like going all-in pre-flop in tourny's nor risking the tourny on one hand.
...I shove because I want loose big stack to call, not fold. Picking up blinds is nice, but its not going to do much for my situation. I'd still be short-stack/below average. I want a call from a loose player since I will usually have the edge over them with AQ and I can double up. In a way, not shoving and getting in your money good here, you are risking your tournament on a single hand with this big opportunity.

However much i dislike it the correct move is to push as you are likely to be between 20-40% favourite.
...Against his range, you're probably a coin flip or at least 60-70% favorite. You're only an underdog against AA-QQ, AK.

I would like to hear any thoughts you have on how to avoid becoming so short stacked, any changes to the way you play when your stack is less than average?
...I have work, but I'll answer this later.

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above

Ronaldadio said:

Yep. I`m with Phil here

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Me too, reraise all-in.

And, in general, don`t worry about scraping into the money if you will then have an unplayable short stack. That will barely give you back your buyin. Your real target is the final table.

In the long term, it is more profitable to bust out 3 times out of 4 and win big the 4th time than it is to stagger in to the lowest payout each time.

I would fold here. When you have AQ, unless he has Ax(below queen) or Qx, then you aren't that big of a favorite. Even when he has the 10J he's about 35-40% to win. I don't want to put my tournament life at risk against someone those 40% to beat me. Also, even loose players run into big hands every now and then.

You're toast!!

You should be shoving any Ace, any King, any pair in this situation and probably 2 blind levels back. Who cares if you bust out in 800 or 600, you're not making the money in this tournament.

This is a simple little thing I've learned before entering any tournament..

Look at the structure, meaning the starting stack, the blinds and the time of the blinds.

Let's say your Pokerstars tournament starts with T1500, blind levels are 6 minutes and you start at 15/30 or 50bbs. 15/30, 20/40.30/60,40/80,50/100,60/120,80/160,100/200.. etc.. standard.

In 1.07 hours your starting stack has been used to pay the blinds.. any chips you have now are chips you've won.

At around 50 hands per hour online, how many good hands are you expecting? AA comes once in 220, according to the "math."

Now let's take that T1500 and make it T3000 and 12 minute blind levels ... what happens then? 2.3 hours and your stack is gone.

That's a huge difference.. and the approach to both tournaments is vastly different through the first hour.

So, depending on what types of tournaments you're entering may have a lot to do with your results.

Thanks

TY Philty and everyone else who posted, I mainly remember Philty cuz his post was so lengthy .
Just read everything now, first time I've logged on in a few days.

As mentioned, it's a clear shove. I'd be shoving this with ~25-30 BBs if not higher if it's a loosish player opening. When you have 8 you have to happily ship this in.

Also to note is that in an MTT the money is at the top, not at the edge of the money. So although if you're close to the bubble it may make a marginal situation a fold instead of a call/shove, this is not one of them. If you sit around and wait for a hand when you finally get a hand you'll be going from 3 -> 6 BBs when you double and still be on life support. Even if it's possible to fold to the money, you basically kill your shot of ever winning the tourney, which again is where all the money is.

chukky88 said:

depends what bankroll you have..if you have a small bankroll,then fold is a good move...if you think you have some good money,you can push for a double to get a bigger prize

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I think that it is fair to point out that if your bankroll is so small that u r entering a mtt and u r happy doubling your buyin (roughly what u get if u scrape into the money) u r playing at to high a level for your bankroll. IMO

Maybe a call would have been better, all in on the flop whatever the out come. If he was holding nothing he would probably fold (not sure when his 10 appeared). Going all in preflop allowed him to see all 5 cards. If you get to the flop and he's seen 3, and they did him no good you have a good chance to get him to fold especially if you had decided this hand was make or break for you. Loosing another $5000 chips to you when he was only trying to steal the blinds from you anyway would make him think twice and fold.

This play is not used enough against short stacks that raise preflop. Many with a big hand go all in. The short stack raised for a reason so he's prob going to call your re-raise. This way he's see's all 5 cards with no choice. If you called his raise preflop and the flop was low, you might win it right there with a big raise as he might loose his nerve seens he might have missed.

just my ten cents worth

top ten hands with ten blinds is an automatic push for me. It's my 10/10 rule.

This is an unfoldable situation. instashove.

I would fold as well, when its close to the bubble and you are raised and short stacked, you should probably fold aq, not worth the risk/reward ratio.

chukky88 said:

depends what bankroll you have..if you have a small bankroll,then fold is a good move...if you think you have some good money,you can push for a double to get a bigger prize

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ifn your thinking like this you are playing way too big a tourney you need to drop down in size or two where just making the money will not effect your bankroll

You aren't close enough to the money to fold here and get in. Shove it all in and hope to double up. Otherwise you're done anyway. This is a good hand to get your chips in with. You just got unlucky this time.

miseria said:

I would fold as well, when its close to the bubble and you are raised and short stacked, you should probably fold aq, not worth the risk/reward ratio.

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this is an ironic statement because the way risk/reward is weighted in MTTs is exactly what makes this a clear, clear shove

honestly guys, if you are folding here, you're probably making a mistake playing MTTs at all because you're really hurting your expectation. whether it's because of your bankroll, general nittiness, whatever it is, it's the wrong way to view them if you're looking for a profitable venture in the long-term. if you're just looking for short-term recreation and you get great satisfaction from cashing and earning yourself a few bucks on the day, that's your prerogative. but overall MTT success ($$$) comes from being persistent and time and time again putting yourself in position to accumulate chips and go DEEP, not making a bunch of mincashes