MTTs: $1.10 buy-in vs. $11.00

Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Hey all. So I recently won an $11 satellite ticket on Merge. I'm used to playing a lot of $1, $2, and the occasional $3 tournaments (like dollar dazzler, $2 bounties, stuff like that).

I'm currently playing in the "Daily Deepstack Freezeout - $1,750 Guaranteed" which has an $11 buy-in. The levels increase every 20 minutes (about 3 to 4 times longer than I'm used to from smaller buy-in MTTs), and everyone starts with 5k chips, blinds 20/40.

Things I believe I need to think about:
- Play tighter for longer - Obviously you want to play tighter in the earlier stages of most MTTs, but with 20 minute levels, I can obviously afford to be alot nittier in the early stages. I think I may need to deliberately keep the brakes on though, with those awkward KJo type hands, especially out of position
- Still value bet mercilessly - I know that it's a higher buy-in, but this is something that I know I still have to do. I sometimes fall into the trap of trying to slow-play big hands, expecting (or hoping) that my opponent will bet for me. But especially in early stages, where my hands are going to be stronger, I need to value-bet the crap out of everything.
- Don't get frustrated by better players/ Play my best game - There is a veyr good chance that I'll be out-classed here. Who knows? All I can do is play my best game, get my chips in good, hope to win a few flips, and pray I make a deep run!

I'm really just looking for any advice here on how different play might be, how I should be changing my own play relative to the smaller buy-ins. (And a rail never hurts, but this is the wrong forum for that ;) ).

Cheers, and thanks in advance for any wisdom offered! :D
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
bump.

The first couple times I got decent starting hands (AK, AQ) I made a few chips, but have since been sucked out on twice. Pretty card dead too. VPIP = 15, PFR = 12, over about 50 hands in this tourney. This isn't terrible, but there are two HUGE fish it my table, and I just can't get any hands to play against them.

Staying patient for now. Down to 3.1k chips, but that's still 39bb (26M) with blinds at 40/80.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Well too late to give any useful advice since I'm out, (A8 > AK, go figure), but I still kind of want this responded to =/
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
In general I wouldn't change much of your playing style, as it's still a "micro" game and it's full of fishes too with maybe an extra few grinders added to the list but you certainly shouldn't feel challenged and playing your tight ABC poker early stages and up the aggression when getting short just like you would in another other one.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
In general I wouldn't change much of your playing style, as it's still a "micro" game and it's full of fishes too with maybe an extra few grinders added to the list but you certainly shouldn't feel challenged and playing your tight ABC poker early stages and up the aggression when getting short just like you would in another other one.

Okay, I know it's still micro technically, but it seems like the level should be somewhat higher? Personally I'd be completely under-rolled for $11 buy-ins without satting in.

But it's frustrating when the one time I enter a tourney with a decent structure and prize pool I get almost no cards, and when I do, get sucked out on. =/ Sorry for the whiney post, but I'm still kinda pissed about the last hand. The guy had PFR of 3% over like 70 hands. He preflop raised, and I flatted with AK in position. (Possibly a bad call, but oh well.) I had him on JJ+ or an AQ type hand. When the flop came 10 A 8 and he checked it to me, I put him on Ks or Qs. I bet into him, he re-raised, I shoved. He turns over A8s, and it's "goodbye Scourrge." :(
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Hey all. So I recently won an $11 satellite ticket on Merge. I'm used to playing a lot of $1, $2, and the occasional $3 tournaments (like dollar dazzler, $2 bounties, stuff like that).

I'm currently playing in the "Daily Deepstack Freezeout - $1,750 Guaranteed" which has an $11 buy-in. The levels increase every 20 minutes (about 3 to 4 times longer than I'm used to from smaller buy-in MTTs), and everyone starts with 5k chips, blinds 20/40.

Things I believe I need to think about:
- Play tighter for longer - Obviously you want to play tighter in the earlier stages of most MTTs, but with 20 minute levels, I can obviously afford to be alot nittier in the early stages. I think I may need to deliberately keep the brakes on though, with those awkward KJo type hands, especially out of position
- Still value bet mercilessly - I know that it's a higher buy-in, but this is something that I know I still have to do. I sometimes fall into the trap of trying to slow-play big hands, expecting (or hoping) that my opponent will bet for me. But especially in early stages, where my hands are going to be stronger, I need to value-bet the crap out of everything.
- Don't get frustrated by better players/ Play my best game - There is a veyr good chance that I'll be out-classed here. Who knows? All I can do is play my best game, get my chips in good, hope to win a few flips, and pray I make a deep run!

I'm really just looking for any advice here on how different play might be, how I should be changing my own play relative to the smaller buy-ins. (And a rail never hurts, but this is the wrong forum for that ;) ).

Cheers, and thanks in advance for any wisdom offered! :D

you will not be outclassed first of all, from what iv read from you you can def beat $11 f.o. even tho you are rolled for them.

but set mine vs ep raises more often, almost never flat raises out of sb bb early.

in certain spots its impossible to get 3 streets of value given opponents range and stats, so often checking the turn and either betting/calling/raising river is going to maximize value compared to double barreling and folding out majority of his range.

you can play awfully unbalanced still at these buy ins, as noone hand reads.

when raised by an otherwise passive player you should be folding unless your hand does well against their tight value range.

iso raise limpers for value

check rivers where its hard for them to call a bet/check behind with show down, but have alot of missed draws that they will bluff into you with.

deeper into tourney:

3bet light often vs high steal % players

recognize when stacks and ranges are appropriate to cold 4bet

dont cbet with air BvB when you riase light and he has tightish stats, its often just better to give up and save your cbet.

make sure you size your opens appropriately given average stack at table.

most importantly make sure you think about ranges and try to exploit them
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Okay, I know it's still micro technically, but it seems like the level should be somewhat higher? Personally I'd be completely under-rolled for $11 buy-ins without satting in.

But it's frustrating when the one time I enter a tourney with a decent structure and prize pool I get almost no cards, and when I do, get sucked out on. =/ Sorry for the whiney post, but I'm still kinda pissed about the last hand. The guy had PFR of 3% over like 70 hands. He preflop raised, and I flatted with AK in position. (Possibly a bad call, but oh well.) I had him on JJ+ or an AQ type hand. When the flop came 10 A 8 and he checked it to me, I put him on Ks or Qs. I bet into him, he re-raised, I shoved. He turns over A8s, and it's "goodbye Scourrge." :(

also positions and stack sizes would really help with whether that was a bad play or not.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
also positions and stack sizes would really help with whether that was a bad play or not.

Responding to this short one before taking a closer look at your longer post. Humm... Think I'll need to find the HH to actually make this worthwile.

*5 minutes later*

Okay. Here's the HH. COMPLETELY MISREMEMBER STUFF. Oh well, that's what HH is for - rage-memory fixing :D On second look through, wow I played this bad and made a HUGE crying call. TBH was definitely tilting a bit going into the hand and had the wrong mentality when the ace came. I think I had a deeper stack than I even realized at the time too. Ah well.

Villain Stats (VPiP/PFR/AF): 49/5/0.64 over 61 hands

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T60/T120
Buy-in: Daily Deepstack Freezeout - $1,750 Guaranteed
Merge Network
9 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com - Mac OS X hand history analysis and tracking

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (T4,896)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (T8,140)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (T6,218)
MP - MP (T2,238)
MP2 - MP2 (T4,092)
CO - CO (T10,602)
BTN - Hero (T4,544)
SB - SB (T3,910)
BB - BB (T5,500)

Preflop: (T180, 9 players) Hero is BTN with :as4: :kd4:
UTG raises to T360, 5 folds, Hero calls T360, 2 folds

Flop: :3h4: :ac4: :8s4: (T900, 2 players - Hero: T4,184, UTG: T4,536)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: :2c4: (T900, 2 players - Hero: T4,184, UTG: T4,536)
UTG bets T360, Hero calls T360

River: :js4: (T1,620, 2 players - Hero: T3,824, UTG: T4,176)
UTG bets T810, Hero bets T3,824 (all-in), UTG calls T3,014

Total Pot: T9,268
Hero shows :as4: :kd4: (As Kd)
UTG shows :8h4: :ah4: (8h Ah)

UTG wins T9,268


Gave myself a bit too much credit there - should have been much more willing to give it up. But based on the stats and my tilt... Ended up stacking. Think I figured that his playing it so cautiously reaffirmed a KK type hand.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
you will not be outclassed first of all, from what iv read from you you can def beat $11 f.o. even tho you are rolled for them.

but set mine vs ep raises more often, almost never flat raises out of sb bb early.

in certain spots its impossible to get 3 streets of value given opponents range and stats, so often checking the turn and either betting/calling/raising river is going to maximize value compared to double barreling and folding out majority of his range.

you can play awfully unbalanced still at these buy ins, as noone hand reads.

when raised by an otherwise passive player you should be folding unless your hand does well against their tight value range.

iso raise limpers for value

check rivers where its hard for them to call a bet/check behind with show down, but have alot of missed draws that they will bluff into you with.

deeper into tourney:

3bet light often vs high steal % players

recognize when stacks and ranges are appropriate to cold 4bet

dont cbet with air BvB when you riase light and he has tightish stats, its often just better to give up and save your cbet.

make sure you size your opens appropriately given average stack at table.

most importantly make sure you think about ranges and try to exploit them

Thanks for the great input as always, duggs. This will be going into a Microsoft Word document SOMEWHERE on my computer... This is all the kinds of stuff that I can sort of sit down and think about and eventually come up with, but it's helpful to see it all laid out at once!
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
dont mind the flat pre given his stats that he is super stationy.
i prob bet flop as played when he checks
turn is fine.
i dont mind putting it in on river as he is never folding and he has AQ AK A10 KK QQ alot more than he has AJ/A8/JJ

(range i gave someone with those stats was A10+ JJ+, but its even too tight given his tendency to call and even stations know to open unraised pots.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
dont mind the flat pre given his stats that he is super stationy.
i prob bet flop as played when he checks
turn is fine.
i dont mind putting it in on river as he is never folding and he has AQ AK A10 KK QQ alot more than he has AJ/A8/JJ

Okay, nice to know I didn't 100% screw it up. I think I was wary of betting the flop because I reeeaally thought he had a high pocket pair, and I thought he might actually give up kings on the flop.

I agree on the river, though I honestly probably made that play more for the wrong reasons. :D
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
dont mind the flat pre given his stats that he is super stationy.
i prob bet flop as played when he checks
turn is fine.
i dont mind putting it in on river as he is never folding and he has AQ AK A10 KK QQ alot more than he has AJ/A8/JJ

Okay, nice to know I didn't 100% screw it up. I think I was wary of betting the flop because I reeeaally thought he had a high pocket pair, and I thought he might actually give up kings on the flop.

I agree on the river, though I honestly probably made that play more for the wrong reasons. :D
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
ill post something else as a more indepth guide later when i have time.

Given his stats he will spite call 3 streets with 1010+ there

also holding AK halves the number of KK combos so there are only 3 combos of KK in his range.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
ill post something else as a more indepth guide later when i have time.

Given his stats he will spite call 3 streets with 1010+ there

also holding AK halves the number of KK combos so there are only 3 combos of KK in his range.

That's probably true about the spite calling... And yes, I'm holding a king to cut down on his KK combos, but I would have been happy if he was holding KK :D
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
could prob 3bet/gii given stack sizes actually, although it sucks when he raises a cbet on a dry board.
overall i think its fine
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
post some more hands aswell mate
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Okay, thanks duggs. It's nice to find someone willing to go through my stupid and not-so-stupid hands alike... Since I can't always tell the difference. :D

Okay, this hand was strange. Don't remember much of my thought process, but I c-bet the flop hoping no one had hit the king, and figuring it would be pretty easy to represent. I double-barreled thinking the villain assumed I was c-betting. Couldn't really justify triple-barreling at the time.

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T30/T60
Buy-in: Daily Deepstack Freezeout - $1,750 Guaranteed
Merge Network
9 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com - Mac OS X hand history analysis and tracking

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (T4,900)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (T4,820)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (T10,287)
MP - MP (T5,880)
MP2 - MP2 (T5,330)
CO - CO (T686)
BTN - BTN (T6,265)
SB - SB (T6,810)
BB - Hero (T5,162)

Preflop: (T90, 9 players) Hero is BB with :qc4: :ad4:
2 folds, UTG+2 calls T60, 1 fold, MP2 calls T60, 2 folds, SB calls T30, Hero raises to T240, UTG+2 calls T180, MP2 calls T180, 1 fold

Flop: :2s4: :8c4: :kd4: (T780, 3 players - Hero: T4,922, UTG+2: T10,047, MP2: T5,090)
Hero bets T360, 1 fold, MP2 calls T360

Turn: :4c4: (T1,500, 2 players - Hero: T4,562, MP2: T4,730)
Hero bets T540, MP2 calls T540

River: :jd4: (T2,580, 2 players - Hero: T4,022, MP2: T4,190)
Hero checks, MP2 checks

Total Pot: T2,580
Hero shows :qc4: :ad4: (Qc Ad)
MP2 shows :8d4: :10d4: (8d Td)

MP2 wins T2,580
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
any stats on the guys?
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Oops, forgot those, yes.

UTG+2: 49/5/0.64 over 61 hands (I guess this is the same guy who knocked me out.)
MP2: 18/10/2.00 over 61 hands
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
I prob shut down on the turn, and check behind,
I like the way you played the hand but since you very rarely cbet multiway with air i expect him to have connected with this flop in some way either 99,1010 8x or Kx capped at KQ, or fds.
also if you are double barrelling to fold mid pairs and 8x and charge flush draws you should bet river.

I like the iso raise and cbet, just dont think he is ever folding turn as he limp/called pre and called a cbet. great spot to value be any K or QQ but i just dont think we fold enough out to make turn bet profitable and we can afford to be really unbalanced here.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
I prob shut down on the turn, and check behind,
I like the way you played the hand but since you very rarely cbet multiway with air i expect him to have connected with this flop in some way either 99,1010 8x or Kx capped at KQ, or fds.
also if you are double barrelling to fold mid pairs and 8x and charge flush draws you should bet river.

I like the iso raise and cbet, just dont think he is ever folding turn as he limp/called pre and called a cbet. great spot to value be any K or QQ but i just dont think we fold enough out to make turn bet profitable and we can afford to be really unbalanced here.

Okay, yes I think that makes sense. Seriously though duggs - thanks for the in-depth feedback. I love CC, but sometimes there a lot of one-liner "this is obvious" types of responses, so getting the thought process is helpful whether it followed my own or not! :D

If I find any other specific hands of note from this tourney I'll throw them up on this thread too, but I think most others that I'd consider were pretty straight-forward mistakes or suckouts.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
no worries man, This is my break from studying for midterms
 
D

David G

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Total posts
122
Chips
0
Read the first few posts. OP, if it bothers you a lot to lose/be card dead in a single tournament you should not play them. MTT's are super silly to begin with, and you can fail 99 out of 100 times and still be a winner in the end. You have to get used to losing.

As far as deep/early stages. Just don't get committed to top pair top kicker type hands for your whole stack. TBH there's just not much to be made with hands like AQ/AJ in the early rounds. Take what you can get and if you get opposition, pot control by check calling.

A little secret though: early rounds are also when the most fish are in the tournament. A good play is to over shove a hand like aces pre. You'd be surprised at how many hero calls you'll get with hands like any pair and AK, of which you're way ahead of. You may even get a random hand to call here and there. Yes, you'll win a very small pot sometimes too, as people will fold, but really there's not a whole lot to make with big pair type hands early (repeating myself) and the times you do get a fish to play will make up for any of the times people just folded, plus some.

Remember, shoving all in looks weaker to a lot of people, or "weird" as in: "why would anyone open shove with aces" kind of thing.

Anyway, gl, and seriously consider giving up multi table tournaments. Unless you are having fun or have/develop a special mindset, they can be more heartache than is worth it.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Read the first few posts. OP, if it bothers you a lot to lose/be card dead in a single tournament you should not play them. MTT's are super silly to begin with, and you can fail 99 out of 100 times and still be a winner in the end. You have to get used to losing.

As far as deep/early stages. Just don't get committed to top pair top kicker type hands for your whole stack. TBH there's just not much to be made with hands like AQ/AJ in the early rounds. Take what you can get and if you get opposition, pot control by check calling.

A little secret though: early rounds are also when the most fish are in the tournament. A good play is to over shove a hand like aces pre. You'd be surprised at how many hero calls you'll get with hands like any pair and AK, of which you're way ahead of. You may even get a random hand to call here and there. Yes, you'll win a very small pot sometimes too, as people will fold, but really there's not a whole lot to make with big pair type hands early (repeating myself) and the times you do get a fish to play will make up for any of the times people just folded, plus some.

Remember, shoving all in looks weaker to a lot of people, or "weird" as in: "why would anyone open shove with aces" kind of thing.

Anyway, gl, and seriously consider giving up multi table tournaments. Unless you are having fun or have/develop a special mindset, they can be more heartache than is worth it.

Heh. I appreciate your concern? I guess? Yes I was a bit tilty for this tournament, but I am extremely used to getting knocked out of MTTs for no reason other than a bad card falling, or being card dead for a while. It was frustrating for it to happen at what felt at the time like a bigger opportunity than usual, but this was definitely not me at my best. :D

I've since realized that it's stupid to care what level I'm playing at, since I can satty in without too much difficulty anyway, and it's just a question of hitting a little bit of run-good once I'm there (ie winning a few flips).

As for quitting MTTs... Uhm, no. :p I like cash games, but MTTs are the most exciting for me by far, and although I have very little volume actually tracked (I think a little over 100 by now?), it's looking like I will be at least marginally profitable in playing them. I'm always looking to improve, but so long as I at least maintain my current level of play, I will survive the donkaments for some time to come :)
 
D

David G

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Total posts
122
Chips
0
I don't/didn't mean to offend you, I'm just speaking from experience. I didn't mean to sound sarcastic or anything. MTT's are extremely frustrating, ESPECIALLY if you're in a bad run, of which can last 100's of 1,000's of hands to be honest. That means time-wise you can run under for more than a year, this is especially profound if you play MTT's.

Here's a great read from a guy name NoahSD. I recommend it to ANY and ALL who play mtt's with any consistency or desires. He runs variance simulations with "100 shaun Deeb's" and shows how variance can affect even the best of the best and over 1,000+ tourneys.

This is an A+++ series
Life as an Online MTT Pro by the Numbers (It’s Hard)



Life as an Online MTT Pro II: The Numbers Are Back, and They’re Out for Blood


If you're interested, he also does life as a STT pro and life as a cash pro. Cash winds up being the best, obv. The series/blog will show why.
 
Top