MTT when to push

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NorskNewman

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Yesterday I played in a 1 dollar no rebuy 2k garonteed tournament with 2455 people field.

5 hours later and down to 50 people I sat back and felt like I blew my shot to final table.(been ITM since rank 360.)

My stack stayed on par with average size or just above it 10k or so the majority of the tournament but I found myself facing pushes every hand once it got down to 80 people. Because of blinds and all, I get that.

But with the all ins, and people calling, comes pay-jumps, If I just throw this hand away and let this play out I can jump a spot.

So my question is, When is it time to let it ride?Is there a thumb rule ( if your down to 15 or 10) big blinds its time to get it in.

Is there a time to widen the range or when all this shoving happens its time to stay tight and it is what it is?

Guess I just would like to discuss late play larger tournament thoughts. :tee:

For all the sassy repliers, I get it, your cool and I don't provide a ton of info so how will you possibly surmise a response, then don't respond.:musicus:
 
shinedown.45

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Yesterday I played in a 1 dollar no rebuy 2k garonteed tournament with 2455 people field.

5 hours later and down to 50 people I sat back and felt like I blew my shot to final table.(been ITM since rank 360.)

My stack stayed on par with average size or just above it 10k or so the majority of the tournament but I found myself facing pushes every hand once it got down to 80 people. Because of blinds and all, I get that.

But with the all ins, and people calling, comes pay-jumps, If I just throw this hand away and let this play out I can jump a spot.

So my question is, When is it time to let it ride?Is there a thumb rule ( if your down to 15 or 10) big blinds its time to get it in.

Is there a time to widen the range or when all this shoving happens its time to stay tight and it is what it is?

Guess I just would like to discuss late play larger tournament thoughts. :tee:

For all the sassy repliers, I get it, your cool and I don't provide a ton of info so how will you possibly surmise a response, then don't respond.:musicus:
I use Harrington's "M" to calculate when I should start pushing.
You take your stack size, divide by your blinds + antes(if any) = "M".
If your "M" is 10 or any raise (provided your first to open pot) or call that you're likely to make will put your "M" below 10, then you should be pushing.
 
Shufflin

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Shove with a much wider range than you call with. If particular players are shoving all the time, then you may choose to look them up with decent cards (25%?). If there has already been a call, you generally want to stay out of the way.

With 80 left, I can't imagine much of a pay jump, so keep gunning for that final table!

I'll still min raise with an M of 8-10 if I can get folds...
 
Ducky7

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It largely depends on your style of play and what you want to achieve in the tournament, I use "M" mostly but i do use BB's as well, It is usually somewhere around x <20BB where you should start finding spots to steal the blinds (if you are wanting to pay jump then find spots to steal the blinds and survive till you get that one big hand) but anywhere from about 25 BB at the latest you should be looking to find a spot to double up.
 
Daniel72

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Yes, the pay jumps are more important at the final table. I often open shove (or punish the limpers) with 12-15 BB. Also depends how crazy or not the table is...
 
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only_bridge

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1$ donkaments can be pretty crazy.
If that is the case, then just wait for a hand and push all-in for 20 bb's or so and hope your hand holds.

But when you are homing in on the final table game usually changes a lot.
Most of the crazy people have been knocked out, and everyone is tightening up a lot.
If that is the case, then you should start stealing blinds a lot. And there is no reason to risk more than you have to. Even with as little as 10 bb's a min-raise-and-take is superiour to pushing.
 
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I've had the same thing yesterday. I was playing a 6$ buy in tournament on party poker (not many people play there so after late reg it was around 170/197 people left)

Got to the final 60 top 20 get paid. I shove AA utg i think it was with 20k chips ( i was really tight throughout the whole tournament and didn't lose a single hand as I would just play monsters) blinds were 1200/2400 + 200 ante if I remember correctly. SB calls (he had 90k chips) with A5off and hits his straight on the flop.

I think the next time I will just shove any decent ace or pocket pair as playing good hands is no use as the person that has more chips will most likely get lucky and just suck out on you.
 
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NorskNewman

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Appreciate the responses. Ill start implementing the M. I see that around 20 bb seems to bet the direct answer. Just got to be happy with the decision when I make it!

Here's for hoping. :cool:
 
thebigdawg

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I use Harrington's "M" to calculate when I should start pushing.
You take your stack size, divide by your blinds + antes(if any) = "M".
If your "M" is 10 or any raise (provided your first to open pot) or call that you're likely to make will put your "M" below 10, then you should be pushing.

Thats a pretty good way to go about it.

A lot of it depends on your mind-set going into the tournament. Are you "win it or bust" or "just want to finish with best cash as possible." If your down to lets say the last 40 and you have 13-16 BB's but about 15th in chips you can play tight and advance in the payouts or just play it regularly with thoughts of just winning. I give that example because my brother was in it last night.

Calling is never a good idea in the late stages of a tournament. Push/raise or fold is about the only way to go.
 
Arjonius

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There's no single rule that is optimal across the entire range of tables, opponents, relative stacks, etc. So for starters, understand that the advice above is generalizations, which means there are exceptions depending on the individual situations.

For example, it's usually better to be aggressive, but maybe not so much if you have highly aggressive players acting after you.
 
funkywhiteboy78

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I haven't read Harrington's books yet (a travesty I know), but wouldn't 10 M's usually be right around 10 bb's in most cases? Or am I missing something? Would it be wrong to just use 10bb's as your shove/fold point according to Harrington? I'm just curious.

I know alot of you have way more experience than me, but speaking for myself, when I'm at 20bb, I dont quite feel I'm at the shove/fold stage yet. Once I hit 15bb, I start sweating, and by 10bb I'm shoving anything with a face, high suited connector, or A9+. Especially if I'm in the money already, I'm usually trying to chip up with as premium a hand as I can force myself to wait for.
 
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only_bridge

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I haven't read Harrington's books yet (a travesty I know), but wouldn't 10 M's usually be right around 10 bb's in most cases? Or am I missing something? Would it be wrong to just use 10bb's as your shove/fold point according to Harrington? I'm just curious.

I know alot of you have way more experience than me, but speaking for myself, when I'm at 20bb, I dont quite feel I'm at the shove/fold stage yet. Once I hit 15bb, I start sweating, and by 10bb I'm shoving anything with a face, high suited connector, or A9+. Especially if I'm in the money already, I'm usually trying to chip up with as premium a hand as I can force myself to wait for.

M is one lap of antes and blinds.
I dont like the M concept. Was hugely popular like 4 years ago, but not really in common use anymore.

(yeah I know this thread contradicts that lol)
 
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With 15-25bbs you need to look for spots to re-steal. Best done over late position opens or if a particular player is very active. You will run into a big hand sometimes but moving up the money ladder is pretty pointless so go for it. When successful these add alot of chips to your stack, especially if villain is opening to 3x or 4x. (not as common now but some still do)

I usually start open shoving with ~15bbs. If there's ~20% of my stack in the middle a shove is best imo. Even deep in micro tourneys alot of players can't find the fold button with a hand like AJ/AT. Shove for value ftw. This is all player dependant of course. Size up what you think they're likely to do and act accordingly. (e.g. if a player loves to shove over a small raise, do that when you have a big hand) Hope this helps.
 
arahel_jazz

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The new buzz is called "ICM". Independent Chip Modeling

Basically you have to take into account your stack, the total number of chips in play, and the payout structures... The equity left determines shove/fold.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/tournament/icm/what/

Yeah, this link is for SnG's, but basically once you are at a final table - it's just a big SnG.
 
funkywhiteboy78

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To me, all the theories are all high brow and long-winded ways to say, "excuse me sir, YOU NEED SOME FRIGGEN CHIPS!!!!!!!!''
 
duggs

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really really hate using ICM calculations when we are 40 people out from the final table, to be perfectly honest i dont think we should ever not be playing for the win, i generally hate dropping below 20bb and prefer to be above 40bb, keep an eye on when blinds are due to go up so we know when we should be taking a marginal spot,

but mainly just pay attention to your opponents and their tendencies, they fold too much, push wider. they call too much, shove tighter. they will flat in the blinds alot, raise their blinds wider for value and profit from your cbets. 3bet shove with 18-25bb over people who open and you believe they have a wide range or will fold a reasonable portion or you have good equity v their calling range.

if you play tournaments for the fun of it thats cool, good on you. but if you want to play in a way that you make the most money long term you need to be playing aggressively and looking to build stacks to win tournaments, not sneak into the money and crawl up pay ladder. if this doesnt sound like you then maybe you would prefer DONs or STT where the onus is on cashing rather than winning.
 
duggs

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The new buzz is called "ICM". Independent Chip Modeling

Basically you have to take into account your stack, the total number of chips in play, and the payout structures... The equity left determines shove/fold.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/tournament/icm/what/

Yeah, this link is for SnG's, but basically once you are at a final table - it's just a big SnG.

except that at a final table we should play for the win in most cases. not nit fold up the ladder
 
arahel_jazz

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except that at a final table we should play for the win in most cases. not nit fold up the ladder

Not saying you shouldn't play for the win.

However, if there were two or three short stacks at the final table and the differential between 7th and 4th was $250,000, don't you think you would tighten up your range a bit?
 
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NorskNewman

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if you play tournaments for the fun of it thats cool, good on you. but if you want to play in a way that you make the most money long term you need to be playing aggressively and looking to build stacks to win tournaments, not sneak into the money and crawl up pay ladder. if this doesnt sound like you then maybe you would prefer DONs or STT where the onus is on cashing rather than winning.[/quote]

I am pretty sick of minimum cashing. But I suppose I shouldnt be mad at it either. I am definitely a recreational player. I was trying to take playing online in pokerstars really seriously but the routine bad beats have really taken the wind out of my sails. I dont have the bankroll to play mid stakes or low, I just have to think that its gotta be better up there then in micros. I cant speak for mid and low, but I really can speak for micros. Its just a donkfest whichever tournament you play, sit and goes, etc. No rhyme or reason about it. Time after time beats the bankroll down and every once in a while spike a win.

I guess a side question < Is it any different in "higher stakes" tournaments ?
Today I really went for the aggression you speak of in 10 $00.50cent sit n goes and ended up taking first in one for $11.?? dollars, so that was pretty exciting.

Im here to pay the rake and spend the time.
 
LIR0under

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Dont take online poker too seriously.

Youll regularly see guys call tight players who have pushed all in with baby pairs and 87 suited, then when they win act as if it was a great play. Play your game, be observant and expect players to play like total retards, because they will, often.

This, of course, is assuming youre playing at a reputable online poker room, which many feel doesnt exist.
 
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