MTT vs SNG what to play?

vegasjj

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I wonder what your thoughts are on this question...
play MTT vs play SnG

Here are a few of my observations regarding the difference between these 2 game formats
When I talk about MTT - I am referring primarily to large tournaments with hundreds / thousands of players (ie pokerstars) vs a single table SnG
  • The odds of cashing in SnG is like 3 in 9 as opposed to in MTT is apx 1 in 10 or maybe 1.5 in 10.
  • The odds of winning are 1 in 9 in SnG and perhaps 1 in 1000 in MTT. Or if all things were equal - one would win 1 in 9 starts in SNG - and would win 1 in 1000 starts (that is play everyday for apx 3 years to win one)
  • When you win a SnG you get apx 4 times the initial investment - and takes say apx one hr - or 1.5 hr to do so.
  • To get 4x your investment - in a MTT - see some examples below - that is attained by apx 1 in 30 starts (or you should get there once if you play every day for one month)
I guess I got my brain in a nod - perhaps something is wrong with the numbers above. OF COURSE the big pay back is that you CAN potentially win not 4 times your investment BUT you can win, for example $1500 for $2...that is 750 times! your investment.
However considering (if my logic above is correct) the odds it seems that it is way more easy to be a winning poker player playing single table tourneys.

Still having said all that - I go back and gravitate back to MTT. Even though the first hour/hours are boring.... and even though making itm - is a real poor excuse for spending the time... and getting the real payback - well cannot really expect it to happen very often for sure. And still it has that that magic magnet in it for me.

Pokerstars examples

$1 buy-in - 2002 started 288 itm 63rd place gets $4.14 (3.1 of 100 will reach)
$40 buy-in 1362 started 171 itm 45th gets $ 163.44 (3.3 of 100 will reach it)
$4 buy-in 433 started 44 itm 24th gets $17.32 (5.5 of 100 will reach it)
$2 buy-in 5004 started 630 itm 171 gets $8 (3.4 of 100 will reach it)
 
vegasjj

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No feedback from anyone?
Is it very flawed what I wrote?
 
naruto_miu

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Pokerstars examples

$1 buy-in - 2002 started 288 itm 63rd place gets $4.14 (3.1 of 100 will reach)
$40 buy-in 1362 started 171 itm 45th gets $ 163.44 (3.3 of 100 will reach it)
$4 buy-in 433 started 44 itm 24th gets $17.32 (5.5 of 100 will reach it)
$2 buy-in 5004 started 630 itm 171 gets $8 (3.4 of 100 will reach it)




^^^^This bit confused me...

$1 Buy-in 2002 (Equals number of players I assume), the ITM is 288 (I'm just assuming), what's the 63rd spot then? Is that supposed to be the prize for 63rd finisher? Then you really lose me at the 3:1 and the 100 will reach this spot comment

I'd comment if I knew exactly what I'm trying/supposed to comment on
 
vegasjj

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[/color]


^^^^This bit confused me...

$1 Buy-in 2002 (Equals number of players I assume), the ITM is 288 (I'm just assuming), what's the 63rd spot then? Is that supposed to be the prize for 63rd finisher? Then you really lose me at the 3:1 and the 100 will reach this spot comment

I'd comment if I knew exactly what I'm trying/supposed to comment on

So sorry - you are rite - in trying to keep it short i made it impossible to read

in that example
$1 buy-in
2002 people started
288 were itm
63rd place made reward = to apx 4x the buy-in $ 4.14
(apx the ratio of what a winner takes in a sng)
the 3.1 to 100 - only 3.1% of the people reach 63rd (or better place) (63/2002)

The other examples have the same meaning - samples taken at random from pokerstars completed MTT's
 
micalupagoo

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it does make sense in its own weird way

im gonna answer yes its way easier to win 4x buyin off sitngos
and like you the temptation to win huge off a mtt has its appeal

ive just started grinding SnGs this year and think i have done better with them then mtts especially considering i can multi tbl and be done many games in a short time span, I like the 1in 3 cash too (small as profit may be)

they are different games so advise on what to play is a personal preference, i still do both(and cash) but i dont like to commit the time I used to on big fields- tho I know my big win is coming:)
(it better be, I only play now for spite(;))- to show all those ppl who say Ive wasted do many yrs that they were wrong lol)
think i vote stts to steadily increase BR easiest
hope that answers you JJ
gl
 
OzExorcist

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You're sort of on the right track with your thinking - though this really is one of those issues where the "right" answer will change from player to player.

What you're essentially getting at is the idea of variance and you're right, in a STT you stand to win a much smaller amount, but you have a much greater chance of actually winning it. So in theory if you're a winning STT player and you track your results, you should be showing a pretty consistent line upwards.

MTTs are much higher variance (actually, they're about as high-variance as poker gets) because you can play excellent poker and still go long stretches without any big cashes. In theory though, you're looking to offset those losing stretches with the occasional huge cash that makes it all worthwhile. So the results graph will be very erratic.

That doesn't really make one better to play than the other though - it all depends on your attitude to risk and what you're best at.
 
nc_royals

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I play SnG's to help fund my MTT's. I dont have the time to put into grinding out long sessions night after night. So I'd rather have my SnG's pay for my big tourneys and look for that big score on the MTT. Ive never grinded my way to a nice cashout but I have had several nice 4 figure cashouts from a big MTT win.
 
Arjonius

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The classic answer applies here - it depends. And since it can depend on many factors and/or combinations of them, it comes down to a matter of personal preferences and needs.

For one thing, how much do you play to make money vs. for enjoyment. In my case, I can't completely separate the two, but I definitely play more for enjoyment. As a result, I play far more hours of MTT than cash even though my historical $ per hour win rate is higher for cash. The difference isn't trivial, but it's also not enough to make me change my balance of games. I continue to play more MTTs because I enjoy them more even though I make less profit.

Also, in terms of looking at profitability, I think the key is $ per hour. The main reason is that it gives a more complete picture than things like ROI or BB/100. Those can both improve while you make less money or decline while you make more.

As for the possibility of winning many time your buyin in big MTTs , I think this leads some people toward wishful thinking and away from the more complete picture. For example, let's say we have a very nice 100% ROI in large MTTs, that we average 3 tables at an avg buyin of $5, and that our avg playing time is 3 hours per tournament. This works out to $5 per hour.

Let's then create a second scenario where we 3-table STTs at the same $5 buyin, that the avg duration is 1 hour (which is too high), and that our ROI is "only" 50%. This works out to $7.50 per hour.

While you can change the figures to alter the results, most reasonable scenarios for a particular player will tend in the same direction, which is that if we focus on large MTTs in pursuit of the occasional big paydays, we may well put less money in our pockets over the long run.

Admittedly, this doesn't apply equally to everyone. For instance, a person who tends to be scared money playing cash is probably better off in MTTs where the risk of losing more than the entry doesn't exist (ignoring rebuys).
 
rdm4k

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@op. perhaps i am a bit late posting in here,
but i'd like to give my thought.
All previous said is right but you missed considering a very important point (maybe the most): the bankroll management!
Because mtts are high variance (not close) u are supposed to play them with a larger bankroll than other games type. Now i read so many different thought about which is the correct BR to grind mtt vs sng so I'll say my personal one: which is that u should be rolled 300x for mtt vs something like >80x <100x for the Sng (according with the tabling and the structure type: es turbos or not).

So my advice is: if u do not want to go broke just keep on grinding sng and as soon as the BR increase u may add some 18/45 ppl then 180 max.
Whilst playing them add rdm freerolls (like CC freerolls which I never played but I suppose got good field coz of the selection the site do - 65 quality post + 30 days activity = less random ppl)
U might even add some mtts (1 or2) while u playing ur session so, supposing u got, after 2h of play, a deep run, u can continue and enjoy(/practise as well) the mid stage.

sry op if i didnt clarity your mathematical clue but Imho the point just above it's the most important thing to consider for a right choice on what to play. your favorite game apart.

gl and let us know your choice!
 
Ezekiel162

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I play SnG's to help fund my MTT's. I dont have the time to put into grinding out long sessions night after night. So I'd rather have my SnG's pay for my big tourneys and look for that big score on the MTT. Ive never grinded my way to a nice cashout but I have had several nice 4 figure cashouts from a big MTT win.

^^ I'm with this train of thought... but it kinda depends on my feel at the time. When I want to play LAG I stick with MTT's but when playing STT's I play TAG... I like both tho'... depends on my preference at the time... sounds stupid I guess, but that's just me...:eek:
 
R

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I usually like to play MTT because of the bigger money up top. But all this can really depend on your bankroll and how much time you have. MTTs can kill your bankroll because you need a big finish every now and then to stay profitable and you can easily go on a cold streak. Sngs are a lot shorter but not a lot money to be won.
 
rdm4k

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[...] sry op if i didnt clarity your mathematical issue but Imho the point just above it's the most important thing to be considered for a right choice on what to play. your favorite game apart.

gl and let us know your choice!

fyp
(sry for the bad English and the re-post but i could not edit my previous one)
 
rock0001

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both, but if you wanted to grow your bankroll quickly then mtt are the best choice. however the variance is much higher in mtt, so playing stt are the best option to keep your bankroll safe.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I think it mostly depends on your reasons for playing.

If you are doing this for a living...it is probably most important that your "graph" has a pretty consistent and steady positive trend.

If you are doing this for enjoyment, challenge, thrill etc. then your motivation is different.

For me, I work 40 hours a week and make $43 an hour at my job. Poker is my relaxation, my hobby, my joy, and it will probably never be more profitable than my job. The idea of grinding $2 SNGs for a profit of about $5 an hour just sounds like adding more monotonous hours to my workweek, but at a significant hourly paycut.

I'd rather go for the glory, go for the excitiement and if I go bust and have to deposit $100 every few months then so be it....still cheaper than golf or skiing. (haven't gone bust yet though!)
 
Bowman26

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I also play the cash games and SNGs again now to pay for the occasional entry into a larger MTT. Those MTT can be a long haul so to even have the time to invest is hard for me. If you are sitting down and plan to make the final table you are investing a lot of hours although you may be done in no time if you get busted early by a bad beat.

Paradise Poker had a Million Dollar Freeroll years ago that you had to win your way into. I think they gave away 10 seats per qualifier and each qualifier had around 4000 entries since you could enter as many as you wanted for free. I won a seat at the Million Dollar Tourney and spent 5 hours doing it. Then I played in the tourney and made it to Day 2 after playing over 8 hours on day 1. Only to play another 3 hours before busting out around 1000th out of 8000 entered. Total winnings. ZERO lol

The MTT are fun to play and offer a bigger payout if you win of course. I think a lot of people like the feeling of getting deep in a MTT and having huge stacks of chips. Unlike they would ever have to bet with in a cash game lol. They are fun but you have to avoid so many mine fields and win so many races or coin flips that to get to the end is difficult to do even seldom much less on a regular basis. So depending on the buy in the pay off could be nothing for a long time until you hit one, if you hit one.
 
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Tournaments are great for big pay outs, but unfortunately we all know you will most likely not even cash about 80%+ of the tournaments you play and probably only min cash in the 10-15%. That leaves about 5% that you will make a nice ROI. Plus they take forever and can be really frustrating when you have been grinding 5+ hrs and then get KK into AA and only get $4 for a $1 tourney when first is$ 400+. Sit n gos are the way to go I believe if you want to save some time, play smaller fields, and most likely make more money. (I'm a tournament grinder lol)
 
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Like others say it depends..

But I find for micros at least the 1 dollar 45 mans the most profitable, and less frustrating than regular SNGS dunno why also I think with solid play theres no reason to not cash or be in a cash or bust scenario 1-5 times which is odds I don't mind cause if I make the cash I generally go to the top 3 unless unfortunate events happen which is poker but yea

For big MTTs like others said its mine fields etc, you just need to run really good and big part is having the right player play against you in those moments when you have big hands. Nothing more annoying when you actually get decent holdings getting little action or not getting paid well, I once nursed a 30 bb Stack for 2 hours deep in a tourney not really getting anywhere wake up with KK and bust out to 77s. but still thats poker.
 
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I'd just like to say reading everyone's comments has been very interesting and am uniquely surprised by the thought involved and information contained within them. For a new online player vs. live; it is all very interesting. Thank you.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Like others say it depends..

But I find for micros at least the 1 dollar 45 mans the most profitable, and less frustrating than regular SNGS dunno why

Interesting opinion.

I find those 45 man SnGs to be the MOST annoying because they don't pay as many people as the 1 table SnGs (meaning % of entrants who cash). But they also don't have the big prizepools and big paydays for when you DO make it to the top 3. In fact, even making it to the final table doesn't mean a payday, which for a MTT is usually a big goal.

for me, the 5 table SnGs are the worst of both worlds.

not saying you're wrong it's just an opinion and personal preference. :D
 
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Your logic isn't right for this. In SnG's, odds will greatly vary from player to player. A winning poker player isn't going to have the same odds of cashing/winning as a losing player etc (over a large sample size) The odds of winning 1 in 9 or cashing 3 in 9 as you put just isn't right. The same applies to MTT's. If a good winning player plays a 1000 man MTT daily along side a losing player playing exactly the same game and same amount of games, the odds of winning and making deeper runs will sway into the winning players advantage.


It is easier to become a more consistent winning player if you play SnG's, purely from a variance point of view. The bigger the player pool, the larger the variance. That said though, because people play multiple tables online they can consistently win money MTT's too. However; all this said - no one can say which is best to play because it's different for everyone.

Play whatever you're most profitable in and of course enjoy.
 
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U

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both, but if you wanted to grow your bankroll quickly then mtt are the best choice. however the variance is much higher in mtt, so playing stt are the best option to keep your bankroll safe.

I'd kinda go with this, with my advice being to initially start playing STT's then, after you've built your bankroll a bit, test MTT's
 
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