MTT vs SNG.. How do you approach playing style?

Bowman26

Bowman26

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Mainly I have been thinking that my play has been too tight with all of today's young maniacs out there. I was wondering how some of you approach a MTT say in the very beginning? I'm a tight player over all takes shots at times if things seem ripe. I have won several MTT years ago with over 4000 players so I am not new to MTT but my style that worked for me in the past is not hitting for me now. Sure I still sit around and hang in there till 75% are on the rail but I have a hard time getting any sort of stack working. I am very disciplined with my chips mind you. Thus I end up with the short stack and essentially get in all my chips on any hand I play.

Sooooooooooooooooooo........

Should I loosen up more when the blinds are low and see if I can hit the nuts and push harder to bust people? Or just push my good hands even harder than I am now? What should I do to try and increase my stack besides be more loose and aggressive when short of being dealt one monster after the other!

The wait and patience game used to pay off more with larger stacks towards the money but now not so much. Sucks to get all the way into a tourney and bust out as always but to never have any chips to work with is tough. Almost thinking be loose and aggressive early and either getting a nice stack then or busting and saving several hours might me the way to go. Get lucky early and build a stack or spend hours playing only to have to push all in and hope to get lucky later lol that is the question?
 
Randall McMurphy

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Many people overrate doubling up early. For every maniac that builds a big stack early, there may be 5 or 10 that bust out.

And if you have won several MTT's with over 4000 entrants, keep doing what you're doing. I've yet to win one with over 60 people.
 
rdm4k

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your post is too vague, how can we advice you without know anything about your play?
u say u play tight right, how tight? What does tight means? (I play tight too, yeah 28/23 :D )
Perhaps u playing nit and too passive and missing value.

What are y opening in early stage from any position? Is your pre-flop hand selection correct? then, are u able to manage those hands postflop?

There is not a law in how to play an early stage mtt (tight or loose). It depends according to your game style adjusted on the table you playing on.

A winning player should play that way.

Overall the best for a beginner is to play tight and then open up pre flop ranges with experience and confidence in his own game- a winning loose play require lots of more skills (coz obv we will be more often involved in marginal hands which what we have to be able to understand how to max/min - profits/losses)

I know several winning regs which are very conifident with the short stack play (they're tag players), so they move tight and they put money in, selecting the right spot to play. They far ahead in p/f situation getting back tons of ev because they skilled on that more than in c/r air on a paired turn coz they know villain will fold nmw coz is scared of the bubble (it's a mere semplification)


Did u play lots of mtt?? how many? 4k players got huge variance, the fact that u won playing tight (in the past instead of now. does not mean absolutely nothing)

Play you style , first of all, post hands, study ranges. That's da way to win

sry if the post it's not that clear:rolleyes: are 6:30 am here and I am now going to bed
 
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cotta777

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Mainly I have been thinking that my play has been too tight with all of today's young maniacs out there. I was wondering how some of you approach a MTT say in the very beginning? I'm a tight player over all takes shots at times if things seem ripe. I have won several MTT years ago with over 4000 players so I am not new to MTT but my style that worked for me in the past is not hitting for me now. Sure I still sit around and hang in there till 75% are on the rail but I have a hard time getting any sort of stack working. I am very disciplined with my chips mind you. Thus I end up with the short stack and essentially get in all my chips on any hand I play.

Sooooooooooooooooooo........

Should I loosen up more when the blinds are low and see if I can hit the nuts and push harder to bust people? Or just push my good hands even harder than I am now? What should I do to try and increase my stack besides be more loose and aggressive when short of being dealt one monster after the other!

The wait and patience game used to pay off more with larger stacks towards the money but now not so much. Sucks to get all the way into a tourney and bust out as always but to never have any chips to work with is tough. Almost thinking be loose and aggressive early and either getting a nice stack then or busting and saving several hours might me the way to go. Get lucky early and build a stack or spend hours playing only to have to push all in and hope to get lucky later lol that is the question?


Q.1 Should you loosen up when blinds are low

A.1 In general yes a good way to accumalate chips early since alot of players will be leaking chips hugely. You wana make sure you can capitalise on this.
A.2 However it's not always a good idea unless you are aware of your image and how players may adapt. It will depend on the buy in and table dynamics of that specific game.

Q.2 What should you do to increase your stack more in addition to playing loose.

A.1 Extracting max value is important, paying attention to players that are weak or loose and depending on what your table image is (for example)
being in position against loose players take chips. And if you have a tight image as long as you dont abuse it too much you can use it against cautious players who will of noticed your pretty solid. to semi bluff etc take extra pots.


Q.3 maintaining your stack later on

A.1 Even some of the best players wont maintain a huge stack in Mtt's the key for us is maintaining our stack till we get a spot or wake up with a hand. You can do this by stealing 1 to 2 blinds per orbit, and or 3-betting late raisers IP with decent hands - Again just dont abuse your table image but do this enough to gain respect from the table
 
Henry Minute

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Should I loosen up more when the blinds are low and see if I can hit the nuts and push harder to bust people? Or just push my good hands even harder than I am now? What should I do to try and increase my stack besides be more loose and aggressive when short of being dealt one monster after the other!

The wait and patience game used to pay off more with larger stacks towards the money but now not so much. Sucks to get all the way into a tourney and bust out as always but to never have any chips to work with is tough. Almost thinking be loose and aggressive early and either getting a nice stack then or busting and saving several hours might me the way to go. Get lucky early and build a stack or spend hours playing only to have to push all in and hope to get lucky later lol that is the question?
I am in the same situation as yourself with a similar style. I too frequently bust out with only 10-20% of the field remaining.

I firmly believe that the strategy of playing tight in the early stages is the correct one. It is when it comes to widening my opening range that I usually fall down, either doing it too early or opening it too wide.

I have tried pretty much all of the possible combinations of looseness but I am just not good at picking the right spots. It seems that every time I open with an even slightly wider range it goes wrong somehow.

For example, last night I was fairly deep, had a reasonable stack for a change and decided that it was time to open up a little. I got Q8S, not a hand I would normally play, and was lucky enough to hit top two on the flop (Q,5,8 rainbow). Naturally I bet and was left with one caller, which I thought was good as I had position. Long story short, my hand didn't improve but he made a str8 on the river with his 94off.

That is not a whining moan it is just an example of what typically happens when I try to open up. If I hadn't played I would have been easily ITM and as it happened I was crippled and got blinded out soon after.

When I continue playing TAG I have more success. I still win the occasional tournament and money fairly frequently.

So from my own experience I would suggest that you should develop your technique to maximize the value of your good hands.

I have no doubt at all that most others will disagree with me. :)
 
Bowman26

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I know the flow of most MTT is for the first few levels to have the lunatics go at it and many get away with a large stack but many go bye bye really quick as well.

As for how tight I play.... I'll usually only raise with JJ or higher and will only smooth call 3 bets. With small pairs I won't call many 3 bets or large raises. I have no problem tossing small pairs all together depending on position. When I do have position I still wait for premium hands and don't call with anything just because I am on the button. From the SB I will fold is I have crap even if it hasn't been raised or only the BB is left. When I am the BB I won't try to defend my blind by calling a raise with junk. That kind of tight. lol

My style is more suited to post flop play. I find all the young players these days think that being super aggressive all the time is how you should play poker. They shove all their chips in with hardly no chips in the pot and when they have plenty of chips to play with and aren't to the point I would say push with anything you can get decent to play. The style today seems to be more gamble pre-flop and less game post flop. Which to me is stupid because we all know even AA can look like crap after the flop. Sure I will push in some spots when I have the nuts and want to try and get people off their draws but I see it done on boards that would never call for it IMO.

This brings me to drawing and calling bets with a draw. I do feel like a part of my problem is my reluctance to call a bet of any size with a drawing hand unless I have at least 8+ outs. Only to toss them and see I would have made my hand. But of course you can't know that before you toss right? lol I understand pot odds etc but I find it hard to call off chips to see a card when all I have is a draw working.

I also find it hard to get to steal many blinds and often the cost of doing so seems negative to the chip stack. I try not to even get involved with hands that I know will cost me a lot to see a showdown so I prevent this by not playing many to begin with.

I've only been back to online poker for a few months now and I thought it was full of lunatics before all those years ago and now it seems even worse :rolleyes:

My style works well for me still I just think I need to widen it a bit with more suited connecter hands etc and try to get more action when I do have hands. Need to start thinking like they do with regards to calling not like I do. IE I don't push it enough because I think I won't get any action when I should be pushing it harder because people are expecting lots of action from others with all sorts of hands. The biggest problem with being so patient and picking your spots with premium hands is that many times you wait for those cards a long time only to get them and get no action. A few of those types of hands and you don't get any chips then you are back to card dead slowly being blinded away to short stackville.

I think of everything in %'s with regards to my chips and the amount of calling a bet raise etc in relation to my stack. Perhaps I need to stop being so tight on that with myself and play more of the situation than the math. I try to use both of course but the situation online is often hard to determine.
 
ccocco

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did not play bad, not many reach final table in tournaments over 4000 players .. I think that you have to follow your style of play like if you get resusltado. I have to vary according to the time of the tournament and the amount of chips you have. regards
 
rdm4k

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As for how tight I play.... I'll usually only raise with JJ or higher and will only smooth call 3 bets. With small pairs I won't call many 3 bets or large raises. I have no problem tossing small pairs all together depending on position. When I do have position I still wait for premium hands and don't call with anything just because I am on the button. From the SB I will fold is I have crap even if it hasn't been raised or only the BB is left. When I am the BB I won't try to defend my blind by calling a raise with junk. That kind of tight. lol

the problem playing too tight as u said is that people might fold lots of stuff against u coz they get u playing top range only. u end up being exploitable

From what u wrote i understand that maybe your problem it0s not that u r too tight but u r maybe too passive.

A good tight strategy is the TAG one. Means u should be playing, the hands u play, aggressively. ex: on your raised pots, are u cbetting enough?? ending up playing hit or fold drive u nowhere. Look for article about TAG strategy mate, look up at the cbet and the c/r so u will improve your arsenal with new moves might be helpful soon.

u said u raising JJ+ but for a good TAG play u have to add more hands in the pf range according with position and situation (ex: unopened pots, limped pots ect).
Aggression in very important in NLHM; and i am not talking about being maniac as the new online kids.

About draws u have to give a check to some pot odds article which may give ya some tips and ideas on how to manage them.

good luck
 
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In a online tournament with 4000 players 2000 of them wont be thinking about your hand and will have no notion whatsoever of your 'image'. I think unless it's a rebuy playing tight is best in the early stages and remember strategy involving 'image' will be invisible to many and may therefore misfire.
 
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Keep to winning is knowing how to build a stack, knowing when to flip; and when you have to fold!
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I know the flow of most MTT is for the first few levels to have the lunatics go at it and many get away with a large stack but many go bye bye really quick as well.

As for how tight I play.... I'll usually only raise with JJ or higher and will only smooth call 3 bets. With small pairs I won't call many 3 bets or large raises. I have no problem tossing small pairs all together depending on position. this is good, but you should also be willing to call some raises with pairs in position and set mine early on when stacks are deep When I do have position I still wait for premium hands and don't call with anything just because I am on the button. this sounds like a leak...a nitty leak. If you're going to play tight then you simply MUST use your position whenever you can because nobody gets enough premium hands on a regular basis to make enough money that way. Basically, open up on the button and cut-off....probably the hijack too. when somebody limps and you have a medium or speculative hand; don't fold your button or limp along, RAISE them to isolate and play a pot in position against a passive player.From the SB I will fold is I have crap even if it hasn't been raised or only the BB is left. When I am the BB I won't try to defend my blind by calling a raise with junk. That kind of tight. lol that is good to do early on, theres not enough in the pot worth stealing. later, you'll need to wage war for the blinds and antes just like everyone else.

My style is more suited to post flop play. if this is the case, you should read up on "small ball" a style that Daniel Negreanu plays well and teaches wellI find all the young players these days think that being super aggressive all the time is how you should play poker. They shove all their chips in with hardly no chips in the pot and when they have plenty of chips to play with and aren't to the point I would say push with anything you can get decent to play. The style today seems to be more gamble pre-flop and less game post flop. Which to me is stupid because we all know even AA can look like crap after the flop. Sure I will push in some spots when I have the nuts and want to try and get people off their draws but I see it done on boards that would never call for it IMO.

This brings me to drawing and calling bets with a draw. I do feel like a part of my problem is my reluctance to call a bet of any size with a drawing hand unless I have at least 8+ outs. probably only a small leak. got to consider implied odds when you are drawing to a well disguised monster. For example, gutshots are well disguised...you don't want to go crazy with gutshots all the time, but for example if you flop bottom pair with a gutshot on a raggedy board and you and villain are both deepstacked? implied odds are there....Only to toss them and see I would have made my hand. But of course you can't know that before you toss right? lol I understand pot odds etc but I find it hard to call off chips to see a card when all I have is a draw working.

I also find it hard to get to steal many blinds and often the cost of doing so seems negative to the chip stack. later on you simply MUST scrap for the blinds when they are high. Even if it ends up costing you a little bit of your stack, it will earn you action when you finally do pick up a nice hand. if you play super tight only premium cards then everyone has an easy fold when you finally enter a pot. People will fold their AQ to your AK, people will fold their TT to your QQ because you are too transparent.I try not to even get involved with hands that I know will cost me a lot to see a showdown so I prevent this by not playing many to begin with.

I've only been back to online poker for a few months now and I thought it was full of lunatics before all those years ago and now it seems even worse :rolleyes:

My style works well for me still I just think I need to widen it a bit with more suited connecter hands etc and try to get more action when I do have hands. Need to start thinking like they do with regards to calling not like I do. IE I don't push it enough because I think I won't get any action when I should be pushing it harder because people are expecting lots of action from others with all sorts of hands. The biggest problem with being so patient and picking your spots with premium hands is that many times you wait for those cards a long time only to get them and get no action. exactly why playing pots in position with medium hands is a good idea. you might smash the flop, you might win with aggression when they are weak, you might earn free cards because of position, and at the very least you might get called later on when you have a real hand! A few of those types of hands and you don't get any chips then you are back to card dead slowly being blinded away to short stackville.

I think of everything in %'s with regards to my chips and the amount of calling a bet raise etc in relation to my stack. Perhaps I need to stop being so tight on that with myself and play more of the situation than the math. I try to use both of course but the situation online is often hard to determine.


my commments above in red
:)

also, I'd like to differentiate between speculative hands, and medium strength hands.

speculative hands are small pocket pairs and suited connecters and suited Ace Rag. They tend to have low intrinsic value, but huge implied value when they flop well. They are usually easy to play and don't get you in much trouble because you either smash the flop or you don't.

medium strength hands are basically 2 big cards or medium pairs like 77-TT, and also sometimes ace medium like AT or A9

With speculative hands you want to occasionally come in for a raise in early position, and you want to occasionally call a raise with them in late position. If you miss the flop and you're out of position, no big deal- you can check fold and lose a small pot. If you miss the flop and you're in position, you've still got a lot of ways to win the hand.

With medium strength hands you generally want to play these in position, and generally you should play them strong. They are not speculative; you are playing them for value but your position will help you out tremendously the times you are beat. Because you have position, you get to exercise pot control. You can keep the pot small when you have a small or medium hand, and you can inflate the pot when you really connect and make a big hand.

I'll happily fold KQ in early position all day, and then happily raise a limper with KT suited from my button.
 
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houtlijm

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guess it's called variance.. imo you play the right way. MTT are tournaments where a bit of luck is involved. stick to the basics: tight early, loosen up later
 
Bowman26

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Thanks for the comments everyone I think I have found a few things to work on for sure. Since this post I have gone deep in a few MTT only to get it in with the best and be outdrawn every time. I was 9 places away from winning a free seat to the 100K tourney and got totally coolered when I picked up KK in the SB and the BB had AA. That was the Lucky Draw Ticket tourney and had over 500 entries. Then I ran deep in the 6K MTT only to get it all in 4 WAYS with the best of it and go down again. I had KK to call push and calls from two with AQ and one with JJ and of course a J comes on the turn. That one pot would have had me sitting pretty going into the money. But busted out 20 or so before the money.

Anyway I tried to slowly think about how to incorporate the ideas from this thread and they seem to be working I still busted before the money but I did it with bigger stacks when I got there!! LMAO

Thanks for the red ink missjacki :) I have to agree with pretty much everything you said. Thanks for the reply. And thanks again to all the replied. If anyone else wants to chime in please do.
 
Bowman26

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So close yet again!! Although this time I had more chips in the later stages just went totally card dead. I applied many of the things here and many worked well. Position was not being taken advantage of as much as I should have been and I was giving others to much credit for being good players and should have been calling people down more at times. To that I will say I paid more attention to things this time as well and that never hurts. I had been playing such ABC poker I guess when I would go read news or forum posts and play hands when the window popped up.

One more freeroll ticket for this MTT left so maybe next time. I have come so close to getting a entry I can taste it :)

SoClose.jpg
 
helpspb

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freerolls are very specific kind of tourneys and it usually takes a lot of luck to get deep in them if you have like 10K+ entrants. In general though I wouldn't change your strategy. Being tight at first is good, IMO. Blinds are small and there's no reason to lose half of your chips on speculative hands. You'll see a lot of donks trying to double up at the beginning of the tourney (I mean it usually happens in freerolls with lot of entrants), but you don't have to and shouldn't worry about them. Later on when blinds are higher it's time to be more active and aggresive. Being aggresive isn't everything, though. You should be smart about it - pick right spots, pick weak opponents, if you bluff know when to fold etc etc. Big part of poker tournaments is patience so I wouldn't worry about early stages of the game that much. You also have to accept that MTTs have higher variance and you're not gonna get to FT that often. You have to take risks and face hard decisions and it's your job to do the best call in given situation. Yep, sometimes you can lose even after making right call, but again it's part of the game. Last thing to keep in mind is that you should mix up your game and keep others guessing at all times. You don't want them to know that you're only raising with certain range of hands etc.

In your last post you say you give players too much credit for being good and you should've called them down more times...... Well, careful with that. Make sure you have right odds to call them down and don't just assume they're always bluffing even if you've seen them bluff before. I've played a lot of freerolls so I know what kind of players you can meet at your table, but don't underestimate them. You never know who you'll run into.
 
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